Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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  1. Jun 11, 2016 #121

    choppergirl

    choppergirl

    choppergirl

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    Military, GA, and Commercial pilots have killed way more people than ultralight pilots.

    The first, because they drop bombs on people... nuclear, incendiary, fragmentation. If you should be b*tching about anyone being wreckless, irresponsible, and unsafe... it's military pilots...because they will tell you up front no bones about it their job is to kill people with flying machines.

    The second, GA pilots, because there are way more GA pilots than ultralight pilots flying far more often in more varied conditions over much more iffy terrain over longer distances for more hours per flight.

    The third, Commercial pilots, because even thought they are mostly just going from point A to point B and following a compass and altitude setting, they fly all the freaking time, through everything, IFR. With lots of people on board. In a huge, complicated plane. And are probably worked to death like Greyhound Bus Drivers.

    I would like to point out that all of the above, who have much higher kill and be killed numbers than ultralight pilots, were all DUAL INSTRUCTED... with years of experience. The biggest category of killers and Darwin Awards go to highly experienced dual instructed pilots. Sorry, it's true.

    You can argue that if you divided accidents by hours flown, those planes may have a better statistical record with fewer accidents per hour. I would give you that. But that does not mitigate the fact that more people die at the hands of those three pilot types than ultralight pilots.

    Choppergirl sticks out tongue and makes a great big raspberry sound.

    Ultralights are a different beast. You fly them for fun in daylight with little to no wind very slow and low to the ground and you're not under any pressure to kill others, get anywhere fast, fly through weather or at night or in rain or when your carb might ice up, or because you feel obligated to power on through even though you lack sleep. If things aren't perfect to our liking, we don't have to fly that day. At all. We probably won't even take the plane out of the hangar if the weather forecast app says... "not ideal".

    Yes sailing experience probably would help (you're in a big kite that is trying to float on the wind) as well as starting off running down shallow hills in hang-gliders, or taking some rides in dual sailplanes and taking the controls. As odd as it sounds, I even think it may help to do some swinging on playground equipment... if I ever do any inverted flight even for a microsecond.. well beforehand I plan to be use to feeling upsidedown by hanging from some monkey bars... so when I am in a plane upside down for the first time doing a roll, being upside down won't be entirely alien to me. Not saying my plane is rated for doing that (it's not), but if I did dare such a thing, it would be with quite a bit of forethought and practice before hand...

    If I want, I can talk to my ground person (maybe my dad - former ATC and Cessna 170 owner/pilot) via Family Services Radio. There's my dual instructor a PTT finger press away. But really he has not had any experience flying an Ultralight either, so I'm still being a pioneer.

    Probably what irks me the most is GA pilots saying oh you need this and that and you have to do that and be prepared for this and land this way or fly up high so you got lots of time to think if an engine goes out and flying without dual is a suicide in the making... etc... That may all be true in a GA airplane. Learning to fly solo in a GA airplane is probably stupid as F$%&. Charles Lindberg did it and changed his mind...

    But I'm not going to be flying a fast moving heavy chunk of metal with poor visibility in an enclosed cockpit (with the occassional wasp trapped inside). An Ultralight is a whole 'nother beast. Much like a hot air balloon or a wing suit or a parasali or ground effect vehicle might be considered a whole 'nother beast. I think that's the hardest thing for GA pilots to grasp, that an Ultralight flies nothing like your Tin can. It's like comparing a Swallow to a Butterfly. Yes they fly the same governed by the same aerodynamic rules but also no, they don't fly the same. Advise for a tin can is not 100% applicable to an ultra light.

    If you want the "different beast entirely" speach, tell an autogyro pilot you're a fully qualified GA pilot and no problem, you can fly his autogyro, hand over the keys, and be prepared for an earful about it being a different beast.

    -

    I never hear anyone here rant about military pilots being irresponsible and taking foolish chances... oddly, I started this entire thread reporting just such a thing. I even went to the air squadrons Facebook page and postedy a link to Wikipedia articles about Aircraft Separation and Self Separation... after wading though all the patriotic gobblety gook and thank gods nobody was hurt platitudes. Wonder if they would of said all that if those F-16's now completely unsteerable with no pilots in them any more (having ejected) exploded into a subdivision in massive fireballs of jet fuel...

    Imagine that, me, a full of it know it all aspiring student motor glider pilot... thinking about printing out those wiki pages, tossing them on the photocopier, and going down to the crash site and passing out copies to the air force brass there. Cause see, my motorcycle is licenced and legit with insurance now and my bloody state papers are in order, I can do that now... of course, as a helpful concerned citizen. Of course! Or am I being snarky? Who's to know? Only you HBA guys maybe ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  2. Jun 11, 2016 #122

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    Okay, I'm game, let's see if we can make a good case for instruction that is maybe a little harder for certain rugged individualist type people to argue with... shall we?

    Apparently, CG's dad is/was an ATC and a Cessna 170 owner. We'll use that as a source of useful information on which to base our argument.

    Step one is to ascertain and quantify whether your dad is smart. That's a yes/no question, all you have to do is answer from your heart. We trust you.

    Step two is to ascertain and quantify whether your dad really wants you to have your way cool fun adventures with some reasonable amount of safety. That's another yes/no question for you to answer, since after all... you know him a lot better than we do.

    Step three, Chopppergirl please go speak to your dad, and ask the following simple, straightforward question: "Dad, I want to fly this ultralight that I restored. Because I'm smart, and talented, and I'm a total bad-ass at everything I do... do you think that it is safe enough for me to just go do it, or do you think that would be stupid and it's really necessary for me to fly with an instructor first?"

    We have no idea whatsoever how he will answer this question. (quiet everybody, shhh!) But you should probably take his answer pretty seriously.

    Or, you can look at it this way: If you want to fly it yourself without any instruction, change the name of the VJ-24 from "Dorothy" to "USS Enterprise", and wear a red shirt.
     
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  3. Jun 11, 2016 #123

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

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    It's really easy to investigate them (by comparison) when you just have to download the FDR and CVR.
     
  4. Jun 11, 2016 #124

    choppergirl

    choppergirl

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    Well my dad has seen my plane, and he knows I want to fly it obviously. But ultralights are not his cup of tea. His comments were (on the last picture I took of it when he walked over to see it parked out in the pecan orchard):

    "It's going to be twitchy to fly..." to which I replied I wish it had some dihedral, to which he said that is of no concern, some planes even fly with negative dihedral... and then he said " You are so going to ground loop this thing, with the small wheel base, forward CG, and slow landing speed!" to which I said... I've seen plenty of videos of that, and it doesn't bother me one bit... I don't mind spinning a plane around on the runway, but I do wish I had a tail wheel...

    You might think I've learned most of what I know about planes from my dad but that is totally not true... most everything I know about flying and airplanes is from being a voracious reader and watching tons of video. I'm excellent with keyword searches and researching anything.

    I've learned little about flying or airplanes from my dad, pretty much zilch, but plenty about fixing cars and woodworking. I can rebuild my engine and built that tool cabinet from what I learned watching him work on our cars or build kitchen cabinets...

    On the other hand, I have been up twice in an air traffic control tower... (when I was young) at a large municipal airport with large commercial jet traffic..

    How many of you can say that :)

    Whenever he needs anything on the internet or a hard part to find, he comes to me...I'm the top computer expert in a 15 mile radius around here...

    His first impression of my plane was at how huge the tail and rudder were... compared to a private plane. Because it goes much slower (as a hang glider it stalled at 15mph) , I assume a lot more surface area is needed back there to steer it at such low speeds..

    What my dad doesn't know is how I plan to paint my plane... that is going to be a major surprise to him. To my dad, obviously, my name is not Choppergirl. Who the ? Is Choppergirl might be a potential future question from him. And why... Dorothy? And he probably will look at me real funny and make veiled insinuated threats how I should repaint it some sensible color like... echhh.. solid Cub yellow...
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  5. Jun 11, 2016 #125

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    nothing like arguing a case with airtight logic.
     
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  6. Jun 11, 2016 #126

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    :) :) :) Definitely airtight logic in play here TF! If this was a case of building or flying a model I'd be the first one setting up the lawn chair and popcorn, with the "one to ten" judging signs. I think a lot of us here are really not wanting to see this young lady become disillusioned, or walk away from aviation with a moderate limp. She 'got no idea what we see in her :)
     
  7. Jun 11, 2016 #127

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

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    Arguments about the morality of war have what to do with this?

    See, I almost thought there was a rational discussion going on, but I'm glad you cleared that up.

    Get your plane built and teach yourself to fly. Then you will have earned the right to display the chip on your shoulder. Until then you're just a self-styled rebel who talks big but hasn't actually done anything rebellious.
     
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  8. Jun 11, 2016 #128

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    You forgot to add that ULs can be much safer than typical GA planes...they fly and land very slowly and can pretty much land anywhere there is a patch of flat ground. What they aren't is "crashworthy". Stall at 50 feet and you're in big trouble, hit a tree or building and you're in bigger trouble. A guy that I used to know taught himself to fly a UL. His first flight ended with a broken leg...second flight he hit a hangar and killed himself....but he was only going 30 mph and was only 20 feet off the ground so what could possibly go wrong?

    I started with ULs and flew them over 1000 hours before moving to GA. I love flying them and consider them very safe when flown within their limits. Knowing the limits is the trick. Can you teach yourself...absolutely. Would I recommend it...not a chance. Will you do as you please....I'm guessing yes.
     
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  9. Jun 11, 2016 #129

    StarJar

    StarJar

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    I think "killing" has different flavors. Killing a golf trio on the 3rd hole, is different than killing an ISIS leader and some associates.
    Why demonize the ones risking their lives to protect others? They may not be perfect but who is?
    It can be a stressfull job. Just like drone strike operators. But someone's got to do it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  10. Jun 11, 2016 #130

    Daleandee

    Daleandee

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    I'm confident that you are being facetious with that remark ... but perhaps by doing so the point will hit home. The argument that ultralight like aircraft are easier to fly than GA is nonsensical as I (and many others here) have flown both and for a few reasons might argue that the lighter aircraft needs more skill i.e. attention to detail to fly competently. As Charlie pointed out, hitting something close to the ground at low speed can kill you also. It was said of the Piper J-3 Cub that is was the safest plane ever built as it will just barely kill you.

    Dale Williams
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    123.7 hours / Status - Flying
     
  11. Jun 11, 2016 #131

    Paul willie

    Paul willie

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    The only differance between those who have been to jail and those who haven't is those that haven just haven't been cought . Point with out evil you wouldent know good and with out people like me alot if g ou wouldent know that flight for man was possable yet you bad mouth ppl like me for doing a thing you think is dangrous just my thoughts this morning. Have a blessed day all remember even though some one don't live you remember God loves you .
     
  12. Jun 11, 2016 #132

    N8053H

    N8053H

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    I know a man who is a DAR. He was sent out to inspect a gents airplane he was building. This DAR told this man to get someone else to fly this airplane besides himself for the first flight. The man who built said airplane wanted nothing to hear of it. He wanted to be the one to fly his new airplane for the first time. He kisses the wife goodbye and says he will be back later for he is going to fly his new airplane. She became a widow that day. He never made it but maybe 1/4 mile from the runway. This happened a few years ago and made national news I do believe.

    The best thing the FAA has done is allowing two people aboard on first test flights and for the 40 hr fly off. They got that one right. IMHO
     
  13. Jun 11, 2016 #133

    Dan Thomas

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    Ultralights typically fly in a very narrow speed range between max and stall. That takes attention. They are also typically draggy things, which mean that they lose speed quickly. The pilot used to a 172 will have some fun learning to fly an ultralight. The completely utrained UL "pilot" is much closer to death than he/she realizes, since there is often little or no understanding of angle of attack or stall or load factor and weight and balance and a whole lot of other stuff.

    Ultralights kill fewer people than GA airplanes, alright. That's mostly because there are relatively few of them and they seat one person and they fly low and slow. But that doesn't mean that a larger percentage of them don't crash than do GA airplanes, nor does it mean that there aren't a lot of now-disabled ultralight pilots.

    I started hang-gliding when I was 19 or so. Homemade kite. Knew little to nothing about aerodynamics. Flew twice and crashed both times, enough to convince me that I was being stupid and should go get some instruction. Which I did. I'd be dead long ago if I had persisted in my ignorance. Persistence is great, in certain directions.
     
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  14. Jun 11, 2016 #134

    N8053H

    N8053H

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    When I was taking flight training a man showed up at the school for some training. I sat down with him and we chatted for a while. This man had went out and purchased an airplane. He then tries to teach himself how to fly said airplane. He ended up with his new airplane in a ball on the runway. He told me he took a tractor and put that airplane all over the place. He said no one will ever find that airplane. He thought he better get some instructions. This was a few years ago. I went to a fly in last year and here was this man standing in line for some grub. He told me he has his PP now and had an airplane. I went out and looked at it. One of the nicest airplanes I have seen.
     
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  15. Jun 11, 2016 #135

    D Hillberg

    D Hillberg

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    yeah, can't get hurt in an ultralight....Why do we pick up busted and dead bodies wrapped in busted tubes and bed sheets?
     
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  16. Jun 11, 2016 #136

    MikePousson

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    Not a clue what was said here, but I've never been to jail, not because I ain't been caught, but probably because I haven't done anything to be in jail.
     
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  17. Jun 13, 2016 #137

    Little Scrapper

    Little Scrapper

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    Todd from Todd's Canopies had a severe incident in his Mooney. Thoughts and prayers are with his family. Very nice fella.
     
  18. Jun 13, 2016 #138

    Paul willie

    Paul willie

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    I think i may have posted this in the wrong place was a discussion of somthing ileagle and what I ment is that every one breaks man's laws one way or annother every one has did somthing against the law in man's eyes and the point is that it dosent make any one better than any one else. It just means that we all have did somthing against the law and even if some one dosent admit it it's true one would have to be a saint not to have broke the law one way or annother knowingly or unknowingly there are laws we don't even know are laws . Hope this dident come across the wrong way .
     
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  19. Jun 13, 2016 #139

    radfordc

    radfordc

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    The crash pictures are bad...looks like the plane was coming straight down at impact. Sad that there was an open flat field ahead.
     
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  20. Jun 13, 2016 #140

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Well, put me up for Sainthood because I have never broken the law... Wait, does lying count, because I'm lying here?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
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