Engines: Cost and weight per HP

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Vigilant1, Jul 29, 2018.

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  1. Jul 30, 2018 #21

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    You forgot one of the most popular Engines the Cont O-200(100hp) $23,500 last time I saw a Price. Light Sport version was supposed to be cheaper and lighter. Lycoming probably still makes some Small HP Engines also. You also have the 2 Stroke Family of Engines from Rotax, Simonini, Hirth, Compact Radial Engines also, and Jabiru 4 Strokes.

    Since the majority of Home Builts probably use less than 100hp, I think you will find it hard to beat the Rotax Rick 670 at 92-94hp, only about 8lbs more than a Rotax 582UL and Cost's a little less than the 582UL with a 450hr TBO last I knew.

    You could probably drill Holes in the HF 670cc 4 Stroke Flywheel to make it lighter or just buy the Light Weight one they make for it. Depends on how much Time & Dollars you want to spend on R&D to come up with an Ignition System and maybe a Charging System for it to try and Save a few Dollars or few Pounds of Weight!

    If someone was Smart, they would use the Much Cheaper HD Racing VW Auto Parts and just Design a Billet VW Case similar to the O-200 Case for Home Builts! You can find VW Parts & Service all over the World. With Big Bore Options up to at least (94mm x 84mm) 2332.7cc.

    VW Billet Case.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYFnCfvdZ3A


    O-200 parts manual.
    http://rob.com/matt/manuals/O-200_Parts_manual.pdf

    O-200 Crankshaft - 653012
    $4,999.73
    Now $4,712.86

    VW Billet Dowel Pin Crankshaft | with Std VW or Chevy Rod Journals
    $1,291.98

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Millennium Cylinder - SA10200-A20P
    $1,132.00
    Now $973.50ea

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Camshaft (O-200) - 643067
    $1,209.60

    VW C35 Camshaft, 26mm Pump, Lightweight Lifters
    $153.72
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Overhauled MA-3SPA Carburetor, Continental O-200 A/B, + $600 Core
    *Refundable Core Charge
    Carburetor Core Charge +$600.00
    * Required Fields
    In Stock
    Item: QA 10-4894-1
    Price: $825.00

    VW Weber 40 IDF Single Carburetor Only
    Code: CB6400 $365.99
    ---------------------------------------------
    Continental 4-Cyl Ignition Kit with 4301 Mags, M1780 Harness & REM40E Plugs
    Item: SLK K4520-40
    Price: $2,889.00

    ----------------------------------------------

    Continental Starter Kit, 12 volt Short Nose, STC Pullstart Conversion, FAA-PMA
    Item: SKYTEC KCST2
    Price: $615.00

    ---------------------------------------------

    6861 Overhauled Fuel Pump, for TCM Engines
    Item: AE 6861
    Price: $975.00

    --------------------------------------------
    VW
    EMPI 98-0468-B : EMPI HEAVY DUTY ALUMINUM BUBBLE TOP CASE / 10MM/ 94/ SAND SEAL
    $928.95

    ---------------------------------------------
    Aircraft Parts
    http://www.aircraft-specialties.com/aircraft-parts/

    -----------------------------------------------
    https://pauter.com/parts/super-pro/

    The tremendously strong foundation provided by the one-piece block, the cross bolted main caps and V-8 sized journals of this innovative engine permits the use of all forms of induction and all fuel types. Amazingly, crank strokes of up to 96mm (3.78″) and bores of 108mm (4.25″) can be accommodated, giving a maximum displacement of just over 3.5 liters (215 cu. in.) Dyno results on one of our own turbocharged methanol (no nitro, no nitrous) version at 35 lbs boost produced over 980 hp and 780 ft/lbs torque at 7400 rpm and 6800 rpm, respectively. Pauter blocks are also available in a number of bore sizes and head stud patterns or our Uni-Block model which features a 94mm bore and small point locations for Type 1, ARPM 3.0L or AutoCraft 4″ stud patterns. This from a package very close in overall dimensions to the 92 cubic inch original.
     
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  2. Jul 30, 2018 #22

    BJC

    BJC

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    My guess is that the majority of E-AB aircraft built in the last 30 years use a 4 cylinder Lycoming, or clone, in the 160 to 210 HP range.

    Perhaps one of our statisticians (Ron?) has some data.


    BJC
     
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  3. Jul 30, 2018 #23

    Wayne

    Wayne

    Wayne

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    Are we talking constant power or takeoff (short duration)?

    My UL Power quotes 130 HP in the marketing, with cruise power at 2700 RPM being 117 hp

    Weight is 173 pounds installed with oil

    We paid around $21,000 for it leveraging the US to Euro difference a while back
     
  4. Jul 30, 2018 #24

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    I believe VW cases are made in two varieties, Aluminum or Magnesium. Aluminum is 1 1/2 times the weight of Magnesium. Which could explain some of the disparity in VW engine weights.
     
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  5. Jul 30, 2018 #25

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    FWIW, all the cases in this chart are magnesium. The Type 1 aluminum case adds about 17 lbs vs. a magnesium case.
     
  6. Jul 30, 2018 #26

    Pops

    Pops

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    Can't use the 92 mm pistons from a 1835 VW engine on a 2180cc engine. The pistons for the 2180 has the piston pin closer to the top of the piston for having the deck height in the correct range.
    The cheapest 2180 cc engine to build is the flywheel drive engine and also the lightest.

    No problem cutting the magnesium case or tig welding the magnesium case. Just use a hand hacksaw and grind of file smooth. When the case in cut for the larger dia piston and jugs the case is normally welded behind #3 cylinder hole in the case where the mag is very thin.
     
  7. Jul 30, 2018 #27

    Pops

    Pops

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    That added 17 pounds is hard to deal with when trying to save ounces. If you use the aluminum case with full electric, you are getting close to the weight of a small cont, so might as well spend a little more money and use a Cont .
     
  8. Jul 30, 2018 #28

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    I was wondering if the weight difference we are noticing between your 1835cc engine and the Hummel/Cassler 1835cc engine was maybe a pulley drive/flywheel drive difference? I'm fairly sure his quotes are for a pulley-side prop, is your 1835cc flywheel drive?

    Thanks for the info on the 92mm pistons, it makes sense now that they would be different for the different deck heights/strokes of the 1835cc vs the 2180cc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  9. Jul 30, 2018 #29

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

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    Thanks, I added the O-200A and used the $23,500 price you gave. I show the weight below as 205 lbs, which is intended to include magnetos, generator, starter, plugs. Weight could be saved with lighter weight accessories or a lightweight O-200D, at some increase in price or loss of some commonality/used repair parts availability.

    Just to keep things consistent, I'm still including just engines that can be bought ready to run, without need for owner modifications. The obvious exceptions are the industrial engines/third bearing/prop hub setups.


     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  10. Jul 30, 2018 #30

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ========================================================

    At one time, about 30+ years ago, per kitplane magazine we had over 750+ Airframe Manufactures in the World, now we're down to around 300-350. That was Ultralights, Gliders, Experimental, Para Planes, Light Sport, etc, all lumped together. Rotax held 80% of the World Market for them Small Airplanes. So when they dropped out of the low Corporite Profit 2 Stroke market, that left a great void in the Engine market. The new Hirth Engines for planes has only been around about 15 years, Simonoini about 8-10 years, etc. People didn't Trust them Engines and many still don't. Most of these Engine Companys don't have the Parts & Service for them even today. Big Engine Companies like Continetal & Lycoming have thumbed their nose at the Kitplane market for over 40+ Years. The first Rotax 912 80hp came out in 1993, that's 25 Years ago! Rotax thought they they could make a killing in the Certified Engine market. In the begining they did well with some Military contracts, but things have tapered off, account People/Corporations got Greedy, those different Airframe Manuafactures Prices also went up so that now many peoploe can't afford to buy their products! Those many Kit Planes that flew as Heavy Ultralights for 25+ years, but were really Exsperimental Aircraft, that became Light Sport over night with the change in the Rules, Doubled, if not Tripled in Price also over night! Didn't work to good for many of them, account now their Light Sport Planes are now out of the grasp of many more People. There is about 8 Billion People in the World today, probably only .0000000001% even have a Pilots License, let alone a Light Sport License, since it's hard to find any one who even offers Light Sport Training, after what 12+ years now.

    With Big Ticket items (Homes, Cars, Trucks, Bikes, Boats, Guns, Snowmobiles, etc.) all Doubling, if not Tripling in the last 15 years, People just don't have the extra Spendable Income.

    Many Young People aren't Building/Restoring Cars, Boats, Planes, Bikes, etc., today.

    1990 New Suburban $18,500 out the door.

    2001 New Suburban 38,500 out the door.

    2018 New Suburban bottom line $67,500 and go up to 87,000 today!

    1997 New Crownline 225BR Boat $18,500, same basic Boat today $65,000!

    In 1971 there was around 4 Billion People in the World and all the Snowmobile Manufactures sold about 585,000 New Snowmobiles. In 2016 with about 8 Billion People now they sold only 168,000. Why, Poor Marekting, and Greed from to High of Price for their Sleds. Bottom line Sled today about $6000 and go up to $18,000.

    If it wasn't for Flight Schools buying Planes, many of this Plane Manufactures would have gone out of Business years ago. I just got back from the East Coast on a Road Trip and a Small Airport by my motel was offering Light Sport Training, $4500+ which is ridiculous for a 20hr License. 10hrs with Instructor and 10hrs Solo.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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  11. Jul 30, 2018 #31

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ========================================================

    All Engines are Rated MAX HP at this Rpm. On Planes there usually used at 75% Power, so is their TBO!
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  12. Jul 30, 2018 #32

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Another Engine is the Corvair, it has come a long way in the last 20 years and makes more HP than the O-200. You seem to be compiling a list of Engines that only work in certain Class's.

    IF, we had just (3) Engines, a 35hp Single (Ultralights), 75hp Twin (Small Kitplane), 120hp Twin or 4 Cylinder (Large Kitplane), they would cover 99% of the Kitplanes made! Continetal & Lycoming hold the 150+hp Engine market.

    Off the Shelf New Engine 35hp for Ultralight's today is probably the Hirth F-33 28hp, just add a Tuned Pipe for 35-40hp if needed! Just a Carb upgrade may get you to 30-32hp.

    Off the Shelf New Engine for 75hp (Small Kitplane) is still probably the Rotax 582UL, just add a Tuned Pipe! Another Good Option is use a Rotax Rick 670 at lower Max rpms for 75hp. It makes 75hp at around 6000rpm. I don't have his Dyno Sheet, but here is a 670 with R&D's 618UL Tuned Pipe. http://www.rotaxservices.com/dyno.html#89

    Off the Shelf New Engine for 120hp (Large Kitplane) is probably the Continetal O-200, and just add on a Turbo or do the Piston/Cam Swap. Rotax does have a New motor coming out 135hp, I think. I think the Continetal is still a better Engine.

    Weight vs HP vs Cost vs TBO!
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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  13. Jul 30, 2018 #33

    Vigilant1

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    Feel free to make your own chart, add whatever tuned pipes, drilled out flywheels, hair-dryer-based superchargers, 2-strokes, Wankel go-cart engines, etc that you'd like. My approach was to bound the problem a bit, to see general trends/bargains. One criteria (per the OP) was a 100% new engine. That happens to leave out the Corvairs, as well as all the used/rebuilt Lycomings and Continentals, conversions of used car/motorcylce engines, etc. We could build a more comprehensive list, that's for sure.
     
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  14. Jul 30, 2018 #34

    Pops

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    I think the weigh for the Cont - 0-200 of 205 lbs is without the starter and generator. My Cont- C-85 with no starter, generator, Heavy brass breather elbow replaced with alum,(that was a 6 oz saving), homemade airbox, weighs 188 lbs. Same weigh of the C-85 that Bob Barrows has in the Bearhawk LSA. I have a Cont 0-200 case and I haven't weighed it but it is heaver than the C-85 case.
     
  15. Jul 30, 2018 #35

    Pops

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    This is all very interesting.
     
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  16. Jul 30, 2018 #36

    mcrae0104

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    The original post didn't specify "100% new," and took some liberties with "bought new and completely assembled" by including engines that require user conversion (frankly, ones that require user engineering--or testing in lieu of engineering--and assembly), so I think Armilite can be cut some slack on whether Corvairs are "100% new." Corvairs can be bought "new" and completely assembled from several sources such as Sport Performance Aviation (they will sell you a complete kit or assemble and test run), although it will include a used case (align bored if needed), remanufactured heads, and some minor miscellaneous parts like pushrod tubes. Virtually everything else from crankshafts to connecting rod bolts to valve springs can be specified new.

    I'm wondering if you have the most recent copy of the Kitplanes engine issues (aircraft-specific and alternative), which already aggregate most of this information with the exception of the Honda/Briggs/HF twins.

    For those looking for more information on the myriad of Lycoming/Superior/Titan engines, Powering Your Plane is a pretty good resource for sorting out all the options.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  17. Jul 30, 2018 #37

    Armilite

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    Half the Engines you put on your list is built from New Reproduction Parts and most of them need some form of Upgrades to Work on most AirPlanes!

    There is 4-5 Rotax 912's alone $19,000 to $25,000. I seriously doubt you can buy a Brand New Lycoming O-360.........180hp....for $27,500 even through Vans. You can Source out any of these different Engines to find NEW Parts to assemble a one off 100% Brand New Engine if you look hard enough! Airframe Manufacures don't have the Time to do that and find Quanities of NOS Parts to Fill their Airframe Orders each year, and most don't even THINK, to make their own Engines even today. There is Small Snowmobile, Car, Truck, Bike, Boat, Go Cart, Race Shops all over the World that can do it! They make many Billet parts for their Engines. But these Airframe Dealers/Manufactures can't. Even YOU, could do it for the Price their asking for many of these Airplane Engines offered today $19,000+. Somebody, somewhere has already Reproduced a Corvair Case by now. If you don't like 2 Strokes, that's Ok, but IF, your really trying to find an Accurite list of Cost vs Weight vs HP Available New Engines Today, you need to Include them. There isn't one of them Engines that some Upgrades aren't probably needed, even the Certified Engines. So keep Dreaming!
     
  18. Jul 30, 2018 #38

    Topaz

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    Ultimately, it's the OP's decision whether to include a particular engine in his chart or not. Making the request to add one is fine. If he chooses not to include it, despite the request, that's fine, too.
     
  19. Jul 31, 2018 #39

    rbrochey

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    This is a very informative thread... I have recently been talking with Thunderbird Aviation on the subject of engines, this looks interesting from Ron Jones "..Another engine that I'm considering is the Pegasus 0-100. For the past several years I've been involved with Pete Plum, who designed the engine, in an effort to bring it to market. Pete took the idea of the 1/2 VW and applied it to a Continental 0-200. Basically cut it in half, resulting in a 2 cylinder, 130 pound, 60 hp engine. I have a prototype 0-100 at my shop, but so far it's only run on a test stand and not in the air, but seems to have all the potential in the world."
     
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  20. Jul 31, 2018 #40

    BBerson

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    The lowest cost per hp is the Briggs 21hp 540cc vertical shaft lawn mower engine. $500 brand new with carb and starter.
    Would need significant conversion to horizontal shaft, but could be as light as 50 pounds.
     
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