Engines: Cost and weight per HP

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BJC

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My guess is that the majority of E-AB aircraft built in the last 30 years use a 4 cylinder Lycoming, or clone, in the 160 to 210 HP range.

Perhaps one of our statisticians (Ron?) has some data.


BJC
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At one time, about 30+ years ago, per kitplane magazine we had over 750+ Airframe Manufactures in the World, now we're down to around 300-350. That was Ultralights, Gliders, Experimental, Para Planes, Light Sport, etc, all lumped together. Rotax held 80% of the World Market for them Small Airplanes. So when they dropped out of the low Corporite Profit 2 Stroke market, that left a great void in the Engine market. The new Hirth Engines for planes has only been around about 15 years, Simonoini about 8-10 years, etc. People didn't Trust them Engines and many still don't. Most of these Engine Companys don't have the Parts & Service for them even today. Big Engine Companies like Continetal & Lycoming have thumbed their nose at the Kitplane market for over 40+ Years. The first Rotax 912 80hp came out in 1993, that's 25 Years ago! Rotax thought they they could make a killing in the Certified Engine market. In the begining they did well with some Military contracts, but things have tapered off, account People/Corporations got Greedy, those different Airframe Manuafactures Prices also went up so that now many peoploe can't afford to buy their products! Those many Kit Planes that flew as Heavy Ultralights for 25+ years, but were really Exsperimental Aircraft, that became Light Sport over night with the change in the Rules, Doubled, if not Tripled in Price also over night! Didn't work to good for many of them, account now their Light Sport Planes are now out of the grasp of many more People. There is about 8 Billion People in the World today, probably only .0000000001% even have a Pilots License, let alone a Light Sport License, since it's hard to find any one who even offers Light Sport Training, after what 12+ years now.

With Big Ticket items (Homes, Cars, Trucks, Bikes, Boats, Guns, Snowmobiles, etc.) all Doubling, if not Tripling in the last 15 years, People just don't have the extra Spendable Income.

Many Young People aren't Building/Restoring Cars, Boats, Planes, Bikes, etc., today.

1990 New Suburban $18,500 out the door.

2001 New Suburban 38,500 out the door.

2018 New Suburban bottom line $67,500 and go up to 87,000 today!

1997 New Crownline 225BR Boat $18,500, same basic Boat today $65,000!

In 1971 there was around 4 Billion People in the World and all the Snowmobile Manufactures sold about 585,000 New Snowmobiles. In 2016 with about 8 Billion People now they sold only 168,000. Why, Poor Marekting, and Greed from to High of Price for their Sleds. Bottom line Sled today about $6000 and go up to $18,000.

If it wasn't for Flight Schools buying Planes, many of this Plane Manufactures would have gone out of Business years ago. I just got back from the East Coast on a Road Trip and a Small Airport by my motel was offering Light Sport Training, $4500+ which is ridiculous for a 20hr License. 10hrs with Instructor and 10hrs Solo.
I don’t understand your reply to my post. Please tell me, in one sentance, your response to my post. Thanks,


BJC
 

Vigilant1

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I'm wondering if you have the most recent copy of the Kitplanes engine issues (aircraft-specific and alternative), which already aggregate most of this information with the exception of the Honda/Briggs/HF twins.
Yep, I always look forward to the Kitplanes "Engine Roundup" issues every year, very informative. I don't have my most recent one at hand, but I don't recall a "$/HP" or "Lbs/HP" column in their listings. That's where I was going with this thread: Are there "bargains" in the "$/HP" area (yes, particularly at the low end) and what does it cost us in weight. There's no way this little "thought exercise" could be a comprehensive listing of available engines for homebuilders--Kitplanes already does that better than anyone I know of.
The original post didn't specify "100% new," and took some liberties with "bought new and completely assembled" by including engines that require user conversion (frankly, ones that requirer engineering--or testing in lieu of engineering--and assembly), so I think Armilite can be cut some slack on whether Corvairs are "100% new."
Okay, I give. I added a 100HP Corvair to the chart (see post 29). But there's no way that an engine with a case and heads that have been run for thousands of hours is "new." :) Still, the Corvairs are interesting and you can buy 'em ready to run. As far as the few "metrics" we are looking at ($/HP, lbs per HP) they are pretty much in line with the other entries in the 80-100 HP range.
 

Vigilant1

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The lowest cost per hp is the Briggs 21hp 540cc vertical shaft lawn mower engine. $500 brand new with carb and starter.
Would need significant conversion to horizontal shaft, but could be as light as 50 pounds.
Also, I can find lots of listings for the B&S 810cc in the vertical shaft model, but the horizontal shaft version seems hard to find.

If we could find a simple, light way to turn the output 90 degrees to drive a prop or two . . .
 

BBerson

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Also, I can find lots of listings for the B&S 810cc in the vertical shaft model, but the horizontal shaft version seems hard to find.

If we could find a simple, light way to turn the output 90 degrees to drive a prop or two . . .
No horizontal version, as far as I know. Shouldn't be that hard to convert to horizontal. Might need an oil pickup and 90° adapter for the carb.
 

Pops

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How about adding this to the list. $9400, 170 lbs, 85 HP, 80 hp continuous HP.
I thought about this engine for the JMR, but since I had a Cont -C-85, I use what I had. Believe it would make a good engine for the 650 lb EW-- 1050 lb GW airplane. Seems like a good buy to me.

http://revmasteraviation.com/
 

Armilite

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Lycoming Engines IO-360-L2A
ENPL Number NRT10437
New List Price: $83,264
Core Value: $17,400
Exchange List Price: $65,864
Discount Amount: $11,555
You Pay: $54,309
Payment: $630.29/Mo.
+ Add to Cart

Rebuilt

List Price: $56,722
Core Value: $17,400
Exchange List Price: $39,322
Discount Amount: $6,778
You Pay: $32,544
Payment: $377.70/Mo.
+ Add to Cart
 

mcrae0104

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BJC
Please share a link for this source. Are those certificated or experimental prices? It's not really fair to compare certificated prices to experimental alternative engines.

BTW, if anybody at Lycoming is reading this, your website is among the most opaque this side of North Korea.
 

pictsidhe

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No horizontal version, as far as I know. Shouldn't be that hard to convert to horizontal. Might need an oil pickup and 90° adapter for the carb.
There is no horizontal model. Rotate the world 90 degrees and you're all set.
Alternatively, change the oil pickup and either the carb or the manifold. Considering that the carbs should be rejetted over 3000ft, swappping it for CVs seems wisest.
 

Vigilant1

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What about the various Subarii? I wonder who on here might know all about those?
According to Subaru, they are no longer making small industrial engines. Subaru and the related Robin engines were reportedly very nice, it seems logical that someone has bought the rights to make them, somewhere.

I'm sure there are many manufacturers of 25-35HP small engines for small ATVs, hydraulic pumps, generators, etc. The OEMs likely don't pay a huge price for each one, but they buy hundreds of them. In our position, the trick is to find a way to buy a single one without paying for 4 levels of markups, and being able to get parts later.
 
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Vigilant1

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BTW, if anybody at Lycoming is reading this, your website is among the most opaque this side of North Korea.
+1. And among distributors, finding a price online is as likely as finding nuclear missile launch codes.
All-up weight data? Notoriously incomplete ("Oh, that weight doesn't include a starter. Or carb. Or pistons.")
 

Vigilant1

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Some updates, now includes a Corvair (100 HP) and another VW (2331cc)

Numbers:


Engine.................HP.......Cost ($)....Weight (lbs)...$ per HP.....Lb per HP
Lycoming O-360.........180......27,500.(1)...305.............153.........1.69
Continental O-200A.....100......23,500.......205.............235.........2.05
Rotax 912 ULS/S........100......19,437.......125.............194.........1.25
Aeromomentum AM13......100......10,495.(2)...201..(3)........105.........2.01
Corvair (100HP)...(4)..100......10,500.......219.............105........ 2.19
VW 2331cc (5)...........85(80)...9,400.......170.............111.........2.00
VW 2180cc.(6)...........76.......7,175.......167..............94.........2.20
VW 1835cc (7)...........60.......6,025.......165.............100. .......2.75
VW 1835cc "basic",(8)...60.......4,750.......145..............80........ 2.30
1/2VW 37HP "basic"(8)...37.......3,650........85..............99........ 2.00
Briggs & Stratton 810cc.30.........830........87.(9)..........28.........2.90
^^ "" + hub&bearing (8).30.........980........94.(9)..........33.........3.13
Harbor Freight670cc.....22.........730........97.(9)..........33.........4.41
^^ "" + hub&bearing (8).22.........880.......104.(9)..........40.........4.73

Notes
(1) Price through Van's direct purchase program. May be higher elsewhere?
(2) Price is for the Aeromomentum AM13 "low profile" version. The upright version is $8495 = 84.95 $/HP
(3) Weight is for the AM13 engine, radiator, and coolant
(4) Azalea Aviation "Spyder." 120HP also available ($12,900)
(5) Revmaster "R2300". 85 HP max, 80HP continuous
(6) From Hummel engine site, includes dual ignition system, starter, alternator, carb, Force One bearing and prop hub
(7) As above, but simple shrink fit prop hub (no Force One bearing and hub)
(8) Hummel engine site: Shrink-fit hub, single ignition, hand propped, no alternator, with carb
(9) Includes factory flywheel (which includes factory stator/generator and ignition trigger, etc)

(10) Estimated price and weight of additional bearing and prop hub: $150, 7 lbs.
 
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Vigilant1

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How about adding this to the list. $9400, 170 lbs, 85 HP, 80 hp continuous HP.
I thought about this engine for the JMR, but since I had a Cont -C-85, I use what I had. Believe it would make a good engine for the 650 lb EW-- 1050 lb GW airplane. Seems like a good buy to me.

http://revmasteraviation.com
The specs page is a little confusing. In various places it says:

85 HP at 3350 RPM (we'd probably need a prop of very low pitch if we want to see 3350 RPM on takeoff)
85 HP at 3200 RPM
82 HP at 2950 RPM continuous
80 HP at 3000 RPM continuous

So, something's not quite right with the info on that page.
Per their spec sheet, the Revmaster has a 94mm bore and 84mm stroke, 8.0:1 CR

Hummel (Scott Cassler) sells a "2400cc" engine: (85 HP max, 94mm bore x 86mm stroke, unspecified CR). It looks like the weight is 167 (incl carb?) and the price with dual ignition, alternator, starter, Force One hub, and Zenith carb would come to $7,475. That would be $88/HP, which is quite good for a pre-assembled engine in this HP range. It would be interesting to see what heads he uses and to compare them to the Revmaster 049 heads. Keeping the CHTs reasonable will be the challenge.
Hummel specs (very brief)
Hummel prices
One advantage (IMO) of the Hummel/Cassler engines is the use of the Zenith carb and "stock" parts (alternator, ignition) that are available from several sources. But, the Revmaster engines and their proprietary parts are well respected, no doubt.
 
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davidb

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Revmaster claims to have larger cooling fins so maybe their max continuous hp is greater and realistic?
 

Vigilant1

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Revmaster claims to have larger cooling fins so maybe their max continuous hp is greater and realistic?
That's certainly plausible. But what is implausible is the HP remaining flat from 3200 to 3350, or the max continuous HP decreasing by 2 HP with a 50 RPM increase. It >could< happen, but it would take a torque curve that is very erratic. It is more likely that there are some typos on the Revmaster specs page.
 

Pops

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That's certainly plausible. But what is implausible is the HP remaining flat from 3200 to 3350, or the max continuous HP decreasing by 2 HP with a 50 RPM increase. It >could< happen, but it would take a torque curve that is very erratic. It is more likely that there are some typos on the Revmaster specs page.
Has to be typos.
I wish Scott at Hummel would redo his website, its need a lot of help.

Three things I don't like about the Revmaster engine, first- is the slide carb, no fuel bowl, no use. I would put a Zenith carb on it, so there is $400 extra cost. Second- I don't like having to take the valve cover pan off and then two oil tight covers to get to the bottom spark plugs. Three- not able to hand prop.

I do like Scott's 2180 cc engine, but I don't know what he is using for dual ignition, there again, I want to be able to hand prop. Not that much infro on his website. I know Scott, and would trust him at his word and he sells a good product. That means a lot to me.
 

mcrae0104

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+1. And among distributors, finding a price online is as likely as finding nuclear missile launch codes.
All-up weight data? Notoriously incomplete ("Oh, that weight doesn't include a starter. Or carb. Or pistons.")
Titan seems to be the only one to provide a price you can get to without filling out a quote form. An X360 will run $27k+ according to their spec sheet (option prices, such as FI, are not listed) Powering Your Plane lists these prices for comparison (published 2016):

  • Superior IO-360-B1AC2: $25,600
  • Vans Lycoming XIO-360-M1B: $28,700
  • Titan IOX-360-A4H1N: $28,900
  • Thunderbolt YIO-360-M1B: $32,300

At any rate, an IO-360 for an experimental plane should not be $83,000 (wherever that number came from)!!!
 
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