Engines: Cost and weight per HP

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Vigilant1, Jul 29, 2018.

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  1. Aug 5, 2018 #81

    Armilite

    Armilite

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  2. Aug 5, 2018 #82

    BJC

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    There is no such thing as 37.581 pounds of torque. And there is a difference between Newton meters and foot pounds.


    BJC
     
  3. Aug 5, 2018 #83

    Marc W

    Marc W

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    Yes, it is on the CX4. You are right about changing oil. I have to remove the airbox and unbolt the cooler to get to the drain plug and screen. There are just 4 bolts holding the cooler and it hangs on the hoses so it isn't to bad.
     
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  4. Aug 5, 2018 #84

    Vigilant1

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    A cleaned-up and revised edition of the chart. Thanks, narfi, for the chart configuration tip.
    Changes:
    - Added Casler/Hummel "2400" engine
    - Modified the 1/2 VW engines to reflect the price of a new case (previous chart used the price for use of a reconditioned case). This is more consistent with other entries inthe chart (except the Corvair). A new case adds $700 to the price of the 1/2VW

    Observations:
    - A hand-propped 1/2 VW (37 HP) costs the same as a hand-propped 4 cyl 1835cc VW (60 HP). As Pops has said, the hand-propped 1835cc VW gives a lot of bang-for-the-buck. But, if you need a 37HP to 45HP 4-stroke engine of less than 100 pounds, whatchagunnado?
    - In the bang-for-the-buck category, the math indicates Hummell/Casler 2400 engine to be a pretty good bargain, especially as it includes dual ignition, electrical system, starter, etc.



    [TD="align: right"]27,500 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]305 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]153 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]1.69 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]23,500 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]205 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]235 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.05 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]19,437[/TD] [TD="align: right"]125[/TD] [TD="align: right"]194[/TD] [TD="align: center"]1.25[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10,495[/TD] [TD="align: right"]201[/TD] [TD="align: right"]105 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.01[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10,500 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]219 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]105 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.19 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]9,400 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]170 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]111 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.00 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]7,275 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]170 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]86 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.00 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]7,175 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]167 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]94 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.20 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,025[/TD] [TD="align: right"]165[/TD] [TD="align: right"]100 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.75[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,750[/TD] [TD="align: right"]145[/TD] [TD="align: right"]80[/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.42[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,775 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]100 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]156 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.70 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,750 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]85 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]99 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.00 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]830 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]87 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]28 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]2.90 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]980 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]94 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]33 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]3.13 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]730 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]97 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]33 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.41 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]880 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]104 [/TD] [TD="align: right"]40 [/TD] [TD="align: center"]4.73 [/TD]
    Engine HP Cost($) Weight (lbs) $ per HP Lb per HP Notes
    Lycoming O-360 1801
    Continental O-200A 100
    Rotax 912 ULS/S 100
    Aeromomentum AM13 1002,3
    Corvair 100HP 100 4
    VW 2331cc Revmaster 85 (80) 5
    VW 2387ccHummel "2400" 85 (?) 6
    VW 2180cc 76 6
    VW 1835cc 607
    VW 1835cc 'basic' 608
    1/2 VW (1037cc) 37 6
    1/2 VW (1037cc) "basic" 37 8
    Briggs&Stratton 810cc 30 9
    " " + hub&bearing 30 10
    Harbor Freight 670cc 22 9
    " ^6 + hub&bearing 22 10
    Notes
    (1) Price through Van's direct purchase program. May be higher elsewhere?
    (2) Price is for the Aeromomentum AM13 "low profile" version. The upright version is $8495
    (3) Weight is for the AM13 engine, radiator, and coolant
    (4) Azalea Aviation "Spyder." 120 HP also available, ($12,900)
    (5) Revmaster "R2300." 85HP max, 80HP continuous. 94mm bore, 84mm stroke
    (6)
    From Hummel engine site, includes dual ignition system, starter, alternator, carb, Force One bearing and prop hub
    (7) As above, but simple shrink fit prop hub (no Force One bearing and hub)
    (8) Hummel engine site: Single ignition, hand propped, no alternator, with carb
    (9) Twin. Includes factory flywheel (incorporates factory stator/generator and ignition trigger, etc)
    (10) Estimated future price and weight of additional bearing and prop hub: $150, 7 lbs.[/QUOTE]
     
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  5. Aug 5, 2018 #85

    Vigilant1

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    - Are there other industrial engines we should add?
    -- That B&S 540cc vertical single (of 19 or 21 HP)? Is removing the 6 lb balancer and turning it horizontal really practical, or will it shake itself/an airplane to atoms? $559/19HP = 29.42, slightly higher than the B&S 810cc twin.
    - Any 4-stroke cart engines/small vehicle engines available as crate engines?
     
  6. Aug 5, 2018 #86

    rv7charlie

    rv7charlie

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  7. Aug 5, 2018 #87

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    Without the balance it might be same as older single cylinder Briggs. It is just the cheapest. Two could be connected for 1080cc. at around $1000. Probably easier to get the Robin/Generac ($2000) if they still make them. Those could be the remaining stock on hand. I heard they were discontinued. But changes hands frequently.
     
  8. Aug 5, 2018 #88

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    It would be possible to belt or chain drive an external balancer to just about any engine. This would be the easiest way to make an excessively vibey unbalanced engine usable.
     
  9. Aug 5, 2018 #89

    Lucrum

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    table.jpg

    Just for comparison and using published numbers for the unmodified version of my engine. (Mine is modified)

    Engine

    GE T-58-8B

    HP

    1325 for 5 mins

    Cost

    $26,000 or so

    Weight

    270 lbs

    $ per HP

    $19.62

    LB per HP

    0.2038
     
  10. Aug 11, 2018 #90

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    That's a hard post to follow.

    Back to the teensy weensy stuff, though.

    The 77lb Briggs vanguard 627cc 23hp engine has a 19lb flywheel. The starter is about 6lb. Yep, just over 50lb without those two bits. You'll need to sort out a new ignition and prop hub, but that should be <60lb direct drive. It could probably be tweaked up to 25hp. I suspect that larger twins may see a similar weight drop. I'd love to know what the 993cc flywheel weighs...
     
  11. Aug 16, 2018 #91

    Norman

    Norman

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    Polini Thor 250, 36.5 hp, weighs about 44 pounds without the radiator. It looks like a nice little engine: dual sparks, dual independent ignition, internal balance shaft. The factory radiator mount is a bit wonky but it's designed for powered parachutes where the frontal area wouldn't be much worse than the pilot alone.

    Polini-Thor-250_factory-setup.jpg
     

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  12. Aug 16, 2018 #92

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    Yours for just under $5k
     
  13. Aug 16, 2018 #93

    Norman

    Norman

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    Sorry forgot to put the cost in the last post: $4,495 + 200 shipping. It's not mine. I'm just the help :dis:
     
  14. Jan 28, 2019 #94

    blane.c

    blane.c

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