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Verner Anounced suspensoin of production for 3V and 5V radials

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flitzerpilot

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Hi Guys,

I am still pressing ahead with the Sperry M-1 design even though Verner cutting 3VL production is a blow, A more powerful Verner 3 would indeed be the ideal engine however. I worked with someone 20 years ago on the design of a Citroen 2CV radial, initially a back-to-back twin idea creating a four cylinder unit like the Irwin Meteor motor then evolving into a 'six', similar to an early Anzani, but these were only paper studies.

Matthew knows that I began a 1:1 Comper Swift replica many years ago by adapting a Wot wing panel, increasing the chord from a 42" Clark YH to a flat-bottomed section effectively an 11% T/C Clark Y of 48" chord, deepening the spars to full profile depth and extending the span with spliced extensions. A ply D-cell stiffened wings up but wing folding was not intended.

Meanwhile some further calculations indicate that the M-1 with a 6412 section could met the SSDR requirements and match the original performance of the M-1 is several respects.

So many aeroplanes.....
 

cluttonfred

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I love radials but I would also take an affordable air-cooled inverted inline engine in a heartbeat. It need not be super powerful, something like a four-cylinder 50 hp Zündapp 9-092 would be just fine for single-seaters with a 75 hp six-cylinder version (or a big bore four) for two-seaters. ;-)

zundapp.jpg
 
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Hot Wings

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I love radials but I would also take an affordable air-cooled inverted inline engine in a heartbeat.
If there were a market ....... this might be an even simpler project than the O-100. You would need a crankcase and probably a custom camshaft. Most of the rest could be OTS.
 

pictsidhe

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If there were a market ....... this might be an even simpler project than the O-100. You would need a crankcase and probably a custom camshaft. Most of the rest could be OTS.
Custom cam ring, custom rods. Might be able to use a v-twin crank. Plus all those fiddly bits that make up 90% of the effort.
 

simflyer

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I have a couple clients with the 7 cylinder engines and one is fitting our EFI to it. Hope they continue to build that one along with the 9 cylinder.
They're small, so are limited in parallel production of all types and preferred are 7 and 9 cylinders. 3 and 5 cylinders would be produced in meantime between series of bigger types.
 

addicted2climbing

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Hi all, I haven't been too directly involved with
discussions on the 3V, but have been keeping tabs best I can, while working on my own side of things. This is all informal and unofficial, jist me typing on my phone after getting back from a weekend trip delivering some airplane parts.

So, yes Verner has had to make a hard decision after previous attempts to keep the 3/5V in production have not been working optimally. My understanding is that the current state of things globally is one strain among others, but not the primary factor where they are. (It has been a logistics 'funtime' for so many of us hasn't it?) Nor has it been shelved due to lack of interest, or buyers for the smaller engines! But it is a problem I think of the costs. I imagine we would have to sell the 3/5VL for pretty-much the same price as a 5S, and maybe more. I understand there are logistics bottlenecks to switching all tooling to do the smaller engines, though I am not 100% privy to their finer methods.

Mostly, with the limited resources available, time taken from the big engines to complete the V series orders, just is not making sense, at this time.

Verner has been seeing wait times grow and stretch out towards the 6-month mark this year with their current methods. With the number of flying examples in the US and abroad set to increase significantly in the near term as many projects near completion, we and others have stressed a need for Verner to prepare for more orders as a result.

My understanding is they have made the choice to focus what time and resources they have towards making the larger 5,7 & 9 cylinder engines, and finding ways to add tooling and people in ways that do not compromise their process too much. They do not seem willing to cut corners for speed or cost savings.

This will hopefully mean in time they can find ways to return the 3VL and 5VL into regular production without slowing the 5/7/9S, but I can't speak for Verner towards how possible that looks. I know we are hoping to facilitate that in any way.

As noted they are indeed open to any last orders by the end of October, before the freeze sets in.

Personally, again not an official thing, I would love to see maybe the introduction of a Scarlett 3S making 50+ max HP. That may not fill the role of the 3VL for the part 103 crowd, but could be a 3-cylinder alternative to the 5VL for those who want the look of the 3. (Because selfishly I want a Messenger replica someday and 50-ish HP would be just about right.)
Hey Scott,

Since your a dealer and have a bit more intimate knowlege, any Chance Verner would consider licensed Mfg of the 3V in the USA? Seems a shame to see it shelved when its a really nice option for part 103.
 

ScaleBirdsScott

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There have been discussions on the topic of a license to build them elsewhere. I don't know what the current status is but there are of course many challenges with the concept that would have to be managed properly, and only some of them are related to logistics and engineering.
 

addicted2climbing

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There have been discussions on the topic of a license to build them elsewhere. I don't know what the current status is but there are of course many challenges with the concept that would have to be managed properly, and only some of them are related to logistics and engineering.
Bummer, I am on the fence now on what to do. Was redesigning the FWF on the skylite in Solidworks for the Verner, but now if unavailable will have to rethink things. Do I still buy one for myself and work to make it meet Part 103 but then any prospective builders wont be able to buy that FWF or now work even harder to make a Half VW make weight.... Argh... Or find another engine option? Aixro would do it but its obscenely loud.

Marc
 

Hot Wings

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Do I still buy one for myself and work to make it meet Part 103 but then any prospective builders wont be able to buy that FWF
One of Wainfan's seven deadly sins of aircraft design is locking into one engine option.

This is why I've changed my focus from airframes to powerplants. QAC is one of the few companies in recent history to develop the engine and then the plane. You got both with the Quickie kit. Of course this ultimately tied you to one company and indirectly a second for the basic engine parts.

I have no real interest in radials, or the time to work on one, but If I were in your position I'd be considering getting another small radial into production. A 5 cylinder using the Honda GX-690 cylinders would give you about a 3L (120 cu. in.) engine and around 60 Hp. A 3 cyl might make part 103 weights? It will be a lot of work, but in the long run a far better solution than a 1/2 VW - and an income stream separate from the aircraft.
 

Victor Bravo

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IMHO, for your personal use you can sink whatever time and cost you wish to into a Verner powered Skylite, because it's just a really beautiful cool little engine.

If there is any question about its availability (or a mfg. statement that it will be suspended) then from a business perspective there is no other choice but to sink a lot more time and cost into the viable options that are going to be staying in production (Polini, Simonini, whatever).
 

Victor Bravo

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If I were in your position I'd be considering getting another small radial into production.
No, Nyet, Nicht, Nein, or in his wife's native language Pas d'Question !

We have a squad of trained operatives to protect him from being sucked down that rabbit hole, and the chief enforcer of that squad is Pete Plumb. A2C has his hands and his very large brain completely full with other stuff for the forseeable future.
 

addicted2climbing

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One of Wainfan's seven deadly sins of aircraft design is locking into one engine option.

This is why I've changed my focus from airframes to powerplants. QAC is one of the few companies in recent history to develop the engine and then the plane. You got both with the Quickie kit. Of course this ultimately tied you to one company and indirectly a second for the basic engine parts.

I have no real interest in radials, or the time to work on one, but If I were in your position I'd be considering getting another small radial into production. A 5 cylinder using the Honda GX-690 cylinders would give you about a 3L (120 cu. in.) engine and around 60 Hp. A 3 cyl might make part 103 weights? It will be a lot of work, but in the long run a far better solution than a 1/2 VW - and an income stream separate from the aircraft.
Ye sits a bummer. I would love to design my own engine, but I have seen the hurdles with Pete Plumb first hand and likely not able to go down that road. I do have a few other engines I am considering a test conversion on with a belt drive. But boy I would love a radial.
 

addicted2climbing

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No, Nyet, Nicht, Nein, or in his wife's native language Pas d'Question !

We have a squad of trained operatives to protect him from being sucked down that rabbit hole, and the chief enforcer of that squad is Pete Plumb. A2C has his hands and his very large brain completely full with other stuff for the forseeable future.
VB,
I suppose the Polini is the next viable off the shelf option. Just wanted 4 stroke as every person that buys plans asks me the same thing. What are my 4 stroke options. 1/2 VW is about it right now. With the Verner, I was confident I could make weight since I saved weight with no engine cowl or nose bowl, minimal exhaust and short motor mount.
There are a few 4 stroke PG powerplants out there worth trying but few are nearly as much as the Verner in price. The Badlands guy is heading down this road and will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
Marc
 

Victor Bravo

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Sorry for the thread drift, but - the 36HP Polini (or Simonini) equivalent is more than likely going to be the best compromise and most easily usable option for actual real-world Skylite 103 customers. Everyone will want to talk about 4-stroke power, but the people who actually want to fly the airplane are going to wind up with one of these two engines. They're fairly reliable and work.

If you want to be clever, design some kind of built-in muffler or housing or muff that makes it quieter and not as raspy as a 2 stroke.
 

Hot Wings

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We have a squad of trained operatives to protect him from being sucked down that rabbit hole,
If not him, then someone (not me) needs to take up this project. There seems to be a small, but steady demand for this kind of engine.
This is what is under that little rabbit hole that you see from the surface:
rabit hole.jpg
 

cluttonfred

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And the Skylite has been flown with a half VW already, so something from Scott Casler would probably make more sense as a four-stroke alternative in the long run unless something changes with Verner 3VL availability. :-(
 

Victor Bravo

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Dollars to Donuts that the Polini powered Skylite meets 103 weight a LOT easier and with a lot less structural tomfoolery than the half VW.

NO OFFENSE or disrespect to Mr. Casler or what he provides.
 

billyvray

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Here's another potential 4 stroke contender.
Helvenco 250cc modded from a motorcycle engine (much like Polini if I recall...). PSRu supported both ends. No idea on price thought I have reached out to see.
I just heard back. Price from North American dealer is $7800....😬...likely not cheaper if ordered directly from Helvenco (if you even can).

 
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