rv6ejguy
Well-Known Member
I have a couple clients with the 7 cylinder engines and one is fitting our EFI to it. Hope they continue to build that one along with the 9 cylinder.
Verner Anounced suspensoin of production for 3V and 5V radials
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And there is the free market at work. If the market feels the product is too expensive, there is no market at all.
This is a huge bummer.... I wanted one for the Skylite. Back to my idea to make my own one day I suppose... There was a guy selling plans using VW parts, but never found them. Would be good as a starting point to study the design.
or even Harley
edited
but the new Jabiru units with the heads screwed to the barrels would be ideal
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pictsidhe
Banned
There are Honda industrial v twins with one piece cylinder/heads. They'd be ideal. Add a tapered generator crank and that's about it for off the shelf parts. I'd be tempted to weld up a crankcase from 4130 sheet. The rods and cam will be quite a bit of work.
pictsidhe
Banned
Depends on model. Some use VW, some use Honda.
I got a 3 cylinder Verner a year ago from the guy in the SF bay area who bought 10 of them at once, 2-3 years ago. At the time he bought them, Verner would only sell in lots of 10 or so, to get the manufacturing unit costs under control. As was speculated above, an order of 10 or so might still get Verner's attention again. So, if somebody has a spare $100k.... , or a buying group could be assembled....
BTW, the plan for mine is to use it on an Airbike, where it should be a good fit. At least 3 more of the 10 are now on Legal Eagles, in Central CA, including Les Homan's ORV and SR 7 1/2.
I was looking at Citroen Visa Cylinders. NIkasil, Low displacement and cheap. If anyone has a set of plans I could look at or buy as a reference than I could give it a go in solidworks. I already have a Tormach PC1100 with a 4th axis looking for a good project.
pictsidhe
Banned
They could well be cheaper in batches.
If Lynn’s reduced-scale Sperry Messenger replica comes to fruition, I bet it would be possible to get a group of builders together for a batch engine order.
Marc, I agree that the Citroën air-cooled engines are an often-overlooked option in North America. I believe that the air-cooled 652cc twins used in the early Visa models were the final incarnation of the original 2CV engine, and 652cc "big bore" kits for 2CVs are readily available. Those could make 3/5/7 cylinder engines of 978/1630/2282cc and 51/85/119 hp (extrapolating directly from the Visa engine's 34 hp). That would be a great lineup for a modest single-seater (51 hp), modest two-seater or fun single-seater (85 hp), modest thre-seater or fun two-seater or hot single-seater (119 hp).
Marc, I agree that the Citroën air-cooled engines are an often-overlooked option in North America. I believe that the air-cooled 652cc twins used in the early Visa models were the final incarnation of the original 2CV engine, and 652cc "big bore" kits for 2CVs are readily available. Those could make 3/5/7 cylinder engines of 978/1630/2282cc and 51/85/119 hp (extrapolating directly from the Visa engine's 34 hp). That would be a great lineup for a modest single-seater (51 hp), modest two-seater or fun single-seater (85 hp), modest thre-seater or fun two-seater or hot single-seater (119 hp).
Edwards radial on grabcad could be a starting point.
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pictsidhe
Banned
The Citroens are rev happy engines. Probably need redrive to be worthwhile.
Would that make a difference since just the cylinders and pistons would be used on a clean sheet deesign?
pictsidhe
Banned
If you aren't using the heads, then no, it won't affect it. The heads have huge valves in a deep hemi chamber. The pistons are domed. Not going to be easy to put different heads on.
ScaleBirdsScott
Well-Known Member
Hi all, I haven't been too directly involved with
discussions on the 3V, but have been keeping tabs best I can, while working on my own side of things. This is all informal and unofficial, jist me typing on my phone after getting back from a weekend trip delivering some airplane parts.
So, yes Verner has had to make a hard decision after previous attempts to keep the 3/5V in production have not been working optimally. My understanding is that the current state of things globally is one strain among others, but not the primary factor where they are. (It has been a logistics 'funtime' for so many of us hasn't it?) Nor has it been shelved due to lack of interest, or buyers for the smaller engines! But it is a problem I think of the costs. I imagine we would have to sell the 3/5VL for pretty-much the same price as a 5S, and maybe more. I understand there are logistics bottlenecks to switching all tooling to do the smaller engines, though I am not 100% privy to their finer methods.
Mostly, with the limited resources available, time taken from the big engines to complete the V series orders, just is not making sense, at this time.
Verner has been seeing wait times grow and stretch out towards the 6-month mark this year with their current methods. With the number of flying examples in the US and abroad set to increase significantly in the near term as many projects near completion, we and others have stressed a need for Verner to prepare for more orders as a result.
My understanding is they have made the choice to focus what time and resources they have towards making the larger 5,7 & 9 cylinder engines, and finding ways to add tooling and people in ways that do not compromise their process too much. They do not seem willing to cut corners for speed or cost savings.
This will hopefully mean in time they can find ways to return the 3VL and 5VL into regular production without slowing the 5/7/9S, but I can't speak for Verner towards how possible that looks. I know we are hoping to facilitate that in any way.
As noted they are indeed open to any last orders by the end of October, before the freeze sets in.
Personally, again not an official thing, I would love to see maybe the introduction of a Scarlett 3S making 50+ max HP. That may not fill the role of the 3VL for the part 103 crowd, but could be a 3-cylinder alternative to the 5VL for those who want the look of the 3. (Because selfishly I want a Messenger replica someday and 50-ish HP would be just about right.)
discussions on the 3V, but have been keeping tabs best I can, while working on my own side of things. This is all informal and unofficial, jist me typing on my phone after getting back from a weekend trip delivering some airplane parts.
So, yes Verner has had to make a hard decision after previous attempts to keep the 3/5V in production have not been working optimally. My understanding is that the current state of things globally is one strain among others, but not the primary factor where they are. (It has been a logistics 'funtime' for so many of us hasn't it?) Nor has it been shelved due to lack of interest, or buyers for the smaller engines! But it is a problem I think of the costs. I imagine we would have to sell the 3/5VL for pretty-much the same price as a 5S, and maybe more. I understand there are logistics bottlenecks to switching all tooling to do the smaller engines, though I am not 100% privy to their finer methods.
Mostly, with the limited resources available, time taken from the big engines to complete the V series orders, just is not making sense, at this time.
Verner has been seeing wait times grow and stretch out towards the 6-month mark this year with their current methods. With the number of flying examples in the US and abroad set to increase significantly in the near term as many projects near completion, we and others have stressed a need for Verner to prepare for more orders as a result.
My understanding is they have made the choice to focus what time and resources they have towards making the larger 5,7 & 9 cylinder engines, and finding ways to add tooling and people in ways that do not compromise their process too much. They do not seem willing to cut corners for speed or cost savings.
This will hopefully mean in time they can find ways to return the 3VL and 5VL into regular production without slowing the 5/7/9S, but I can't speak for Verner towards how possible that looks. I know we are hoping to facilitate that in any way.
As noted they are indeed open to any last orders by the end of October, before the freeze sets in.
Personally, again not an official thing, I would love to see maybe the introduction of a Scarlett 3S making 50+ max HP. That may not fill the role of the 3VL for the part 103 crowd, but could be a 3-cylinder alternative to the 5VL for those who want the look of the 3. (Because selfishly I want a Messenger replica someday and 50-ish HP would be just about right.)
Actually, I'd say yes and no (to Marc's question above).
Yes, if you want to get as much power out of the engine as it is designed for (the 17 hp per cylinder I used in my calculations above).
No, if you are content to run the engines at a lower speed for less stress but also less power. The early Visa's 652cc twin makes 34.5 PS (25 kW; 34 hp) at 5250 rpm and 48 N⋅m (35 lb⋅ft) of torque at 3500 rpm. I don't know how much power it's making at 3500 rpm but probably not much more than 9 hp per cylinder so a direct drive engine turning at 3500 rpm would make something like 27/45/63 hp with 3/5/7 cylinders.
The best solution might be an Ace belt redrive adapted directly to the stock two-cylinder engine for very light single-seaters. The Ace redrives for the Chinese GK engines go up to 86 hp so you could also used them for 3- and 5-cylinder radials with the Visa cylinders with an offset propeller axis like the old Pobjoy radails of the 1930s. A light cast or sheet aluminum cover over the belt would dress it up nicely. Anyone for a Comper Swift replica?
Yes, if you want to get as much power out of the engine as it is designed for (the 17 hp per cylinder I used in my calculations above).
No, if you are content to run the engines at a lower speed for less stress but also less power. The early Visa's 652cc twin makes 34.5 PS (25 kW; 34 hp) at 5250 rpm and 48 N⋅m (35 lb⋅ft) of torque at 3500 rpm. I don't know how much power it's making at 3500 rpm but probably not much more than 9 hp per cylinder so a direct drive engine turning at 3500 rpm would make something like 27/45/63 hp with 3/5/7 cylinders.
The best solution might be an Ace belt redrive adapted directly to the stock two-cylinder engine for very light single-seaters. The Ace redrives for the Chinese GK engines go up to 86 hp so you could also used them for 3- and 5-cylinder radials with the Visa cylinders with an offset propeller axis like the old Pobjoy radails of the 1930s. A light cast or sheet aluminum cover over the belt would dress it up nicely. Anyone for a Comper Swift replica?
Heads being one of the parts and machine time intensive bits needed to assemble an 'off the shelf mut of an engine' kind of diminishes the value of the 2CV/Visa for donor parts.
Related: I noticed that the Honda GX690 head/cylinder is now being cloned in China. $200 on eBay. Seems like a much better starting point than the old French hardware?
As interesting as radials are I personally just don't have much interest that kind of a project. There are just too many one of a kind parts to manufacture compared to an inline or boxer.
