New 2014 Lightweight 1.5 Liter or Smaller Automotive Engines

Discussion in 'General Auto Conversion Discussion' started by Geek1945, Jan 17, 2014.

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  1. Jan 27, 2014 #21

    B100

    B100

    B100

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    I am surprised ! Everybody is so focused on the limitations of auto conversions , seemingly searching for the holy grail :ponder:! and god forbid anyone mention a diesel conversion ! everybody says " yes , its the future" "yes would be great" , but then immediately turn to all the reasons ( most theoretical) why its not doable , practical, too heavy! Bla ...bla.. bla!!:lick:
    This is especially true with you guys from North America ( US & Canada) Where is your traditional " Can do attitude" ?
    If the Wright Brother's had you attitude , they would never have gotten off the ground!

    Fortunately, some folks in Europe didn't bother to argue over the subject , they just went ahead and did it !:)






    "80 kg for the driver, 35 kg of luggage, 54 kg for 67L of fuel and 280 kg unladen mass.

    Or 449 kg take-off weight.
    "
    used google translate - from French!


    "To recap, the Gaz'aile only consumed 51 L of diesel to 1400 km in 7:28, 6.8 L / h and 3.6 L/100km, this 188 km / h. And an aircraft at a cost of € 13,000"



    Yes! total aircraft cost is 13,000 Euro ! or around 17500 USD!

    This is not talk or theory these aircraft are flying ,and have been some years now! there is even a member on the forum that's building one, I think!
    But dont take my word for it, check it out! use google translate

    Blanc 01
     
  2. Jan 27, 2014 #22

    autoreply

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    Sure. But I've learned those lessons as well and read and listened to most of what I could find/hear about the Gaz'aile and several other (flying) diesel planes.

    Extremely heavy engines (per HP), severely limiting the most important performance parameter; climb. That efficiency is nice, but simply due to flying slowly. Any other similar airframe with a gas engine can do the same by throttling back at virtually the same low fuel consumption. That's why most builders in the end put in a gas engine.

    I've seen the same in many automotive conversions. I've yet to see the first one that ended up either lighter or cheaper as it's "native aircraft" equivalent (including the VW's)
     
  3. Jan 27, 2014 #23

    B100

    B100

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    Yes ! I agree in regards to low hp/weight ratio, and poor climb ! but the more recent 1,4 cc engines puting out up to 115 hp virtually DOUBLE the power of the first gazaile power plant (58 hp), which, combined with the fact that these engines are equipped with a turbo & inter-cooler should address the climb and flight cruise speed, as well as altitude performance ! don't you agree?

    As for your statement " engine can do the same by throttling back at virtually the same low fuel consumption."

    Come on Autoreply ! you know better than that!! living in Europe you are, or, should be aware of the constant discussion and tests on the subject of gasoline versus diesel and both versus hybrids ! and who comes out on top.... DIESEL :gig:
     
  4. Jan 27, 2014 #24

    saini flyer

    saini flyer

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    Jarno, B100, Jeron.... I think we are talking about different things. All I am asking for is a rotax replacement from one of the newer auto engines with a price point of a VW conversion and by replacement, I mean to get the same performance on not just one airframe but all that take on the Rotax 100HP engine now.

    The one off Gazaile and the one of eco fly and the one of others on specific airframes is not the answer. Jeron is in the business of selling aircraft FWF and I have heard from him in so many forums on the internet and he is just excellent in the amount of knowledge and experience he brings to auto conversions but a 190lb dry engine will weigh 200lbs+ flying weight and is about 40 lbs heavier than the Rotax. Also an upright might not work for all aircrafts. I can put a 912 in the Highlander and Kitfoxes but also in RV12 and MCR01/4s...... I do understand that there are difference in installation for different airframes but an average homebuilder is already building a "plane" ...... give him a break and get him a bolt on conversion for his plane that he can have confidence flying with his wife and kids.

    The endless discussion of this is possible and that is possible and this is good and that is bad never leads to anything. It is all becasue of Old farts like me who have their own opinion... If there is a credible alternative, people will use it. There was a statistics that someone posted on HBA that shows some 10,000 VW conversions sold by the big three and this doesnt account for the average tinkerer who has made his own conversion but I hope we all understand that the 60-85HP direct drive VW is not a rotax and nor can it come close to the performance of the Rotax for the same weight.

    A 58HP diesel is not a 115HP diesel and nor do I see a bolt on conversion available for it at this point. If it is so good, it will become popular... No one wants to spend upwards of $20k for a Rotax, UL, Jabiru, D motor...... (add you other upcoming engine here) but at the end there are no other choices.

    A $17k Viking FWF at 210lbs and Jeron's conversion at about the same or slightly less weight and at the same price point(he has mentioned that the price will be competitive with others) is going to change people's attitude towards going with Rotax..... Really??

    Look up two of the best selling LSAs in RV12 and Highlander and there resale value of more than $60k on barnstormers. Out of the 1000 or so sold RV12, there have been 3 or 4 with Jabiru 2200 and a couple now with 3300, one UL power.... the situation with the HIghlander is no different!

    Please stop the endless discussion and make one that people like me can buy without breaking my retirement funds. In the old times it used to be a 33-33-33 combination of cost for kit, engine, & airframe... The kit price is still there, avionics have reduced to a non issue(including on ipads/smartphones) ... if the engine comes down........without compromise.... :speechles


     
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  5. Jan 28, 2014 #25

    Vipor_GG

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    That is going to be a tall order to fill.
     
  6. Jan 28, 2014 #26

    saini flyer

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    Yes, I know that for the past 13 years and I think most of us know that and even more so I hope(wishful thinking) that most that are advertising the different option know this as it is really important to know your competition to bring out a competing product.

    I really wish all the alternate engine folks good luck as I do not have the knowledge, time, money and all the other things that I do not know that are required to pull this off. If this was easy, I would not be thread c**ping here.

    This is one of the reasons I started looking at electric propulsion as an alternative. Battery, controller, BMS, motor are expensive but their combined cost with a nice range extender setup doesnt even come close to cost of a new Rotax. The zero motorcycle 67HP SR is out in stores and provide a great off the shelf propulsion system. The 54Hp version has already flown in eGull.

    I think that is one solution that will get rid of the cost,reliability, TBO, maintenance associated with the aviation engine.... the only thing missing is a good off the shelf range extender that is available. They are coming but it will take time. The is the best I have found :tired:

     
  7. Jan 28, 2014 #27

    saini flyer

    saini flyer

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    Jeron,

    I would like to learn the differences in your existing 115HP Suzuki engine @ 190 lbs as advertised on your website that is turbocharged and fuel injected as opposed to your new Honda Fit which is exactly the same horse power(without the turbo) but the same weight or even heavier. Your suzuki looks better on the specs to the new upright Honda that you are working on. I do know the turbocharged version is supposed to be 140HP but that is definitely not 190 lbs and much heavier than that.
    Also, will I be able to fit the Honda upright in the RV12? I am really curious to know as I like the Viking engine but not the way Jan runs and deals with people. You are very credible in my book and a lot of us are really waiting for your conversion to come mainstream so we have at least "one" choice.
     
  8. Jan 28, 2014 #28

    raven-rotor

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    Saini flyer

    Just a quick response tonite to your earlier post regarding your 'wish list' for a Rotax® 912 alternative. If i understand you correctly you want 100HP at the price of a VW conversion. Latest trip to the Sonex® website puts the Aerovee which requires some assembly at about $7500 with exhaust, cooling baffles, and air cleaner. Its only 80 HP. Our Suzuki® 1.3L 90HP Master ReDrive Kit with exhaust, custom intake, custom oil pan, lightweight flywheel, etc. has been out for 10 years now and is currently $5495.00 less engine. With allowance of $2000.00 for engine core and rebuild plus radiator you would be pretty much apples to apples on price and components with a little more power and the stock fuel injection which is a plus. You will spend more time putting it all together. Seems pretty much in your price range stated but its not quite the power of a Rotax® 912 100HP and about 17 lbs. heavier (but remember we have always had fuel injection) Anybody know the all up weight of the 912i so we have an apples to apples comparison? When we pioneered this 'SideWinder' 90 degree flipped engine package 10 years ago it was just so that we could fit in the same cowling as the Rotax® 912.

    Will talk Honda® in another post.

    Jeron Smith
    Raven ReDrives Inc.
    303-440-6234
     
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  9. Jan 28, 2014 #29

    raven-rotor

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    Our Honda® Jazz/Fit conversion is the result of 18 years of very slow and steady effort to develop the best possible engine package for our own STOL Cargo aircraft design. We are not chasing the market trying to fit where the Rotax® 912 fits. In fact we are planning on redesigning our whole FWF package to optimize this great engine in the same configuration as it comes in the car. We have chosen the most popular kits based on our years of experience (Zenith 650/750 and Just Aircraft® Highlander and will start there but have no interest in chasing market share. Viking has also admirably proven over the past few years that the complete FWF engine package business model is a winner- while for us that niche has only been 5% of our overall past sales. We have always catered more to the do-it- yourself with Reduction Drive Kits.

    Honda® conversion is too complex to start from the kit end of things so FWF it is for now coming out of the gate. When we said we would be competitive with other engine packages in this horsepower range we did not mean at the same price. Our math has always been 1/3 the cost of a Rotax® of equivalent HP for our Redrive kits with the customer supplying his own engine and doing the conversion him/herself and 1/2 the Rotax® price for a complete engine package. Our Honda® will fit that pricing model nicely. I know that we all want the 100HP engine that weighs 100 LBS. and costs a few (very few) grand but I, more than most folks, know why that simply isn't going to happen. I do have some creative ideas for how to push the price point down a bit but that's a topic for another post. That's all for tonite.

    Jeron Smith
    Raven ReDrives Inc.
    303-440-6234
     
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  10. Jan 28, 2014 #30

    aeromomentum

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    I think this is the engine used in the Elio:
    Elioengine.jpg
    I visited this engine company last spring and looked at this engine. Nice and compact. The factory lists it at 50kw or about 67 hp @6000 rpm. They also list the weight at 75.5 kg or about 166 lbs. Nice motor but a little heavy for the size. The Suzuki G13bb is 171 lbs in the same basic configuration. With the Suzuki I can get the weight down to about 144 lbs with light weight externals. I assume the Elio motor can also be lightened some but it looks like it already has fairly light weight parts like the valve cover and intake manifold so weight reduction will be less. I would guess the final weight will be about the same as the larger more powerful Suzuki G13bb. So there is little or no reason to consider this engine for aircraft use over the well proven Suzuki G13bb. For cars it is a different story since the Elio motor is a more advance VVT engine with more broad torque band and meets Euro IV emission standards.

    For full disclosure I should say that I sell NEW Suzuki engines and long blocks including the G13bb and G15a so may be biased. aeromomentum.com
     
  11. Jan 28, 2014 #31

    saini flyer

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    Jeron, this is precisely my point that we are talking about different things. Your installation is a specific powerplant for a specific airframe. It is great for those who want an alternative engine for HIghlander/650/750 but not for RV12, Rans aircraft etc!

    So as a ball park figure based on the RV12 FWF kit at $28,730 for Rotax 912, your will be about $15k at least with a salvaged engine?

    No, I dont want that as it is not reasonable. What I suggested was a 100HP, 160lb, with the same performance specs as Rotax engine at the price point of your VW Aerovee example(which starts life with a new core!)

    A 100HP 912 overhauled costs about $15k so it is difficult for someone like me to justify a $15k auto conversion at 40 lbs or so more. You can make a case all day for the added advantages of FI, low cost etc and I hope and wish a lot of folks jump ship to your engine but it is not a generic Rotax replacement. I am not bashing or recommending anything here....just stating my frustration and yes as you mentioned..... you know better about this than me!

    For me, I want a complete kit to the last bolt and wire..... a complete FWF.
     
  12. Jan 28, 2014 #32

    saini flyer

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    Maybe you or the moderator can post this as a new thread for a new engine. I hope you can provide all of these and more there and also on your website
    1. how many airframes has this been installed
    2. Total flight hours
    3. Total flight hours on redrive
    4. Where is the redrive manufactured
    5. Analysis for the redrive
    6. How was TBO determined for both engine and PSRU
    7. Any FWF kits in development..... Jeron's comment on Viking's effort to provide a FWF is very relevant. That helped Jan a ton with the Viking.
    8. What are the changes that were made to the engine
    9. What ECU
    10. Dimensional drawing.... at least a line drawing if you are suggesting you have full CAD+CAM+FEA data

    I have a lot of questions but what is the point..... I wish you luck , a lot of luck as you will need that for sure and I wish people who will buy your product as is with the limited information provided even more luck.

    You have compared your engine with others on your website so I hope you have also gone through the various forums and know the issues with them as well ....much better than I do and it is really sad to not have answered atleast the same questions that Jan hasnt answered.

    If this was coming out of Bombardier, I will take it as is but I hope you being a small company and me putting my life and those of my loved ones behind this have concerns and hope that you do not take this against you (like some) and provide truthful, honest, and accurate data to us all.

     
  13. Jan 28, 2014 #33

    raven-rotor

    raven-rotor

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    Scaini flyer

    Good to hear your reply to my posts. Sorry that you appear to be one of those guys for whom the glass is still half empty. It's good IMO you are getting clearer about what you want, but last time I checked the movie star Scarlett Johansson wasn't very interested in dating me, let alone a LTR. Ah, well I guess the closest I'll ever get to what I 'want', is some light flickering on the background of a white movie screen........ No engine exists within your chosen parameters, weight, and price range. It's that simple, and if you want what Rotax® offers, you just gonna have to pay the price.... OR chose an alternative that actually does exist. My target has always been 80% of the bang for 1/2 the buck. Our Honda® will be 115% of the bang for the same 1/2 the buck, so please don't expect me to indulge the whiners.

    Part of getting older is hopefully getting wiser. If I was 25 years younger, just getting started, I'd be jumping up and down to take on Rotax®, fit our engine conversion to every possible airframe, answer all your detailed technical questions, and on and on. I already did that with the Suzuki® conversion platform and have achieved all my goals (except financial success). I've already successfully proven everything about what an alternative auto engine to aircraft conversion can really do in the real world with a few hundred loyal customers worldwide and tens of thousands of flight hours on all kinds of different aircraft platforms. Our Honda® engine conversion is a chance to have another go around and do it differently. When you have gone a few rounds with Rotax® you suddenly realize why they do things the way they do, why they cost what they cost, and why guys like you and me aren't likely to be one of their loyal customers.

    More to come...

    Jeron Smith
    Raven ReDrives Inc.
    303-440-6234
     
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  14. Jan 28, 2014 #34

    BBerson

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    Hello aeromomentum, welcome to the forum. I looked at your website.
    How are you able to buy NEW engines for aviation use? Do you have some contract or other means to limit the manufacturers liability concerns?
     
  15. Jan 28, 2014 #35

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    You can buy limited quantities of new short or long blocks from most OEMs. They just don't know what you are using them for and it's doubtful an automotive OEM could be successfully sued if their engines were installed in an aircraft by a third party.
     
  16. Jan 28, 2014 #36

    saini flyer

    saini flyer

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    Trust me, it was completely empty a few years back ;)

    Yes and we are in violent agreement on this!

    Yes, it is for those specific air-frames

    You are a great asset here and on every other forum where you post. I am really very happy that someone like you is presenting another alternative engine and wish you luck (Financially) so you can bring more great conversions in the future and maybe one of those can indeed give Rotax a run for their money. I am sorry if I sound too negative but that is not about you or your product or anyone's engine conversion. It is just my frustration with the state of the art.
     
  17. Jan 28, 2014 #37

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    Jeron has been around in this business longer than just about anyone else, attesting to his fine service, testing and products. He is a total straight shooter, also quite rare in this alternative engine business.

    If you follow some of the other relevant engine/ airframe forums, you'll see that Jeron has been on there for years, answering people's questions.
     
  18. Jan 28, 2014 #38

    saini flyer

    saini flyer

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    Ross:
    You are absolutely correct in your assessment of Jeron but I request you to please read my post again. It was for aeromomentum.

    I have nothing against Jeron/Raven, on the contrary I think we as homebuilders are fortunate to have someone like him going after the Honda than others so at least we can have confidence in the end product. He has not hesitated even once in answering my questions here and elsewhere.

     
  19. Jan 28, 2014 #39
    I think you are overlooking some obvious successful conversions that have already been proven. Engines like the Corvair, Olds/Buick/Rover, V6 Chevys and V8 Chevys, and even Ford.
    There are two problems with what you are wishing for. If as you mentioned, you feel that you are not an engine type of guy, you probably will never have an airplane powered by an automotive engine. It takes a willingness to put some effort into the achievment to be successful. Probably the closest to a plug and play right now is a William Wynne Corvair. The thing right now with auto engines is that it easier to make them competitive with the larger and heavier (and more expensive) certified engines that are available. When you move to the small and lightweight end of the engine spectrum, its virtually impossible for the auto engines to compete on a weight to weight basis. Therefore, a builder has to decide if their TYPE of airplane can use the heavier auto engine and still accomplish their flying goals. Water/glycol and radiators aren't likely to get lighter, so when you add them to the equation, the auto engine will always be heavier. If your goal is an extremely light airplane with STOL capability, you have to be very cognitive of whats hanging on the front. On the other hand, if your looking at a fast and larger cross country airplane, you can often utilize an auto engine for a replacement.If you are somewhere between these two extremes in flying qualities, the choice of which airplane you want, will probably decide what engine is feasible. The thing is, if you really want an auto engine conversion, you have to expect to either do some of the grunt work yourself, or expect to pay more money to someone else who has worked thru these things. If you want to plug and play, they are available for a price..........but by the time you go that route you may be just as well off with a certified engine.
     
  20. Jan 28, 2014 #40

    raven-rotor

    raven-rotor

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    saini flyer

    Thanks for your feedback. I always learn something from others posts on these forums.

    Think your comment about buying a used Rotax® 912 for your project is probably your wisest choice and brings the initial price point at least a little closer to your stated parameters. In spite of some of my pointy comments, I do share your concerns regarding safety, product testing, and have a very conservative approach to a reliable and proven package.

    Even with about a dozen different proven redrive designs over the past 19 years, we would not have moved forward with a completely new Honda® engine package if we were not able to build on a proven base using our tested redrive components. For example, our 115HP Honda® uses the exact same drive parts as our 115HP Suzuki® turbo engine which has almost double the torque spikes of the normally aspirated Honda® engine.

    Once there is a dedicated Honda® engine section on this site I’ll be happy to post some specs, photos, and more detailed information on our new Honda® Jazz/Fit engine package. In the meantime I’ll continue posting more in depth updates on the Honda Fit Aircraft Engine @ yahoo groups site. Won’t be updating our website much anytime soon as we won’t be heading to market until we have our FWF package up and running on a Zenith® 601XL now sitting on its gear in our shop.

    With the UL Power®, Jabiru®, and D-Motor® engines in/coming to the market place, the 100HP Sport Pilot engine niche is seeing some more options to the Rotax® line of engines but the price point is still outside of your pricing parameters by a factor of 2+.

    Hope this helps.

    Jeron Smith
    Raven ReDrives Inc.
    303-440-6234
     

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