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"minimum" personal mobility device --ground and airmobile.

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Doggzilla

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I was only giving a definition of my " personal minimum" for the category of Fixed wing ultralight. Sure, I could design a powered chute, but that is a different category of aircraft and isn't my interest area. (If that's what a powered harness is).
The easiest minimum roadable for me to design would be the minimum airplane. Something like the DA-11 with removable wings.
I guess Aircar was asking for each persons view of what minimum is possible or what is desired for that person.
I think we need to come up with a better name for powered harnesses, because they sure seem to confuse just about everyone who hears about them. They actually arent powered parachutes, they are powered hang gliders, but not yet a trike.

Mosquito Powered Hang Giding Harness

http://waspsystems.co.uk/
 
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BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
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Port Townsend WA
What is the purpose to try to meet the FAR103 limit?
1) ultralights can be fully manufactured without FAA approval.
2) no biannual flight review required
3) no state registration tax
3) no maintenance or major design change rules.
4) no DAR fee, no A&P annual fee

Apparently, the speed rules are largely unenforced.
 

Rienk

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Santa Maria, CA (SMX)
I don't know anything about powered harnesses/hangliders...
Are there any quick folding glider wings that aren't weight shift, but actually have ailerons?
I would love any referrals to such wings.
Thanks!
 

Rienk

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1) ultralights can be fully manufactured without FAA approval.
2) no biannual flight review required
3) no state registration tax
3) no maintenance or major design change rules.
4) no DAR fee, no A&P annual fee

Apparently, the speed rules are largely unenforced.
I, for one, would never manufacture an ultralight that didn't meet the letter of the law - especially one RTF.
Thus, I don't think it's worth it to try to meet what are probably unrealistic design and performance goals - especially for the first model. But if you can do it, more power to you!
 

Doggzilla

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I don't know anything about powered harnesses/hangliders...
Are there any quick folding glider wings that aren't weight shift, but actually have ailerons?
I would love any referrals to such wings.
Thanks!
Thats the feeling I had until I actually used a hang glider. But there isnt anything keeping you from developing one... the material costs are exceptionally low compared to other categories of aircraft. The thing is, the current designs arent designed for negative Gs. So it would require a new design for the ribs.

And hang gliders are in no way "quick fold"... its like building a tent. No joke, almost identical.
 

jedi

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Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
........
Are there any quick folding glider wings that aren't weight shift, but actually have ailerons?
I would love any referrals to such wings.
Thanks!
Rienk,

Fold yes. Quick fold no. Ailerons no. Spoilers for roll control, yes. Don't give up on the no aileron concept. The Wright brothers did not use ailerons and the birds do not have ailerons. Ailerons were invented to get around the Wrights long expired and invalidated pattent.

Once again you are starting to speek my language. Can we colaborate on a quick fold flex wing?
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
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Port Townsend WA
I, for one, would never manufacture an ultralight that didn't meet the letter of the law - especially one RTF.!
Might be tough to compete when most of the other companies have higher performance.
Sort of like driving 50 mph when the speed limit is 50mph. If you drive 50 other drivers tailgate, pass in curves, etc.
Even the cops expect the traffic to go 55mph or more. It's unfortunate, but what can do?

Canada and UK have no speed limit rules for light single seat.

As long as it is single seat, not much oversight.
 

Rienk

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Santa Maria, CA (SMX)
There is an advantage to meeting the weight criteria... very light tends to be minimal materials with minimal construction cost.
I understand the advantage to making an aircraft as light as possible - that is not in question.
What will never make sense to me for this type of vehicle is meeting a set of criteria (weight, fuel, speeds) that - as it is - allow for only marginally acceptable aircraft... let alone a dual mode vehicle.

First show me a good performing FAR103 ultralight aircraft using these proposed layouts, that comes in significantly lighter than the weight limit to allow for dual mode items, and then maybe I'll get on-board with the goal.

On the other hand, being willing to have up to a slightly higher empty weight (pick a number... I don't care if it's 255 lbs), a higher wing loading - and thus smaller area - much smaller than required for FAR103 so that it is much more easily foldable/portable/driveable/ridable. And carrying more than the regulated 5 gallons of fuel may not be necessary for many flight profiles/missions, but it would be a nice option.
 

Hot Wings

Grumpy Cynic
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On the other hand, being willing to have up to a slightly higher empty weight (pick a number... I don't care if it's 255 lbs),
In my state that would be #300 to #3000. This is the range to qualify for a Motor Powered Vehicle plate. We can run these on the street (interstate excluded) with only homeowners insurance that covers recreational vehicles and almost no standards other than turn signals and lights. If we could just find a way to get the FAA out of intrastate regulation........?
 

jedi

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Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
......

I, for one, would never manufacture an ultralight that didn't meet the letter of the law - especially one RTF.

............

First show me a good performing FAR103 ultralight aircraft using these proposed layouts, that comes in significantly lighter than the weight limit to allow for dual mode items, and then maybe I'll get on-board with the goal.

.........
You do not need to meet FAR 103 but it is a big plus if you do. If the manufacturer meets the requirements on a mass produced RTF and the user modifies it then the user needs to do the required paperwork (certification of aircraft and operator). If ithe modification becomes popular and the manufacturer does not incorporate the changes the after market will step up to the plate.

You can do the experimental LSA with a RTF aircraft. Don't get paranoid over the UL103 versus LSA. Design what works then work the design (do the paperwork).


Referance: Northwing ATF and similar light trikes.

This is a starting point. You can add weight (64 pounds) and speed (20 mph) and performance (shorter landing distances, 1/2 or less look at HG [Hang Glider] landings versus trike landings). There is considerable growth potential. Much more than working from the top down as in taking weight out of an airplane. Begin by removing the fuselage from your design and how much weight do you save?
Add aerodynamic pitch control to the trike and incorporate a higher performance and lighter weight wing with folding and geometric/aerodynamic roll control.
You do need to inovate not just copy and add off the shelf components together for the final package. The rolling gear is the big elephant in the room here as indicated in prior posts.
Wing folding and control systems may be the baby elephant.

ATF Trike · Specifications
Weight
102 lbs.
Empty Weight
186 lbs.
Gross Weight
550 lbs.
Climb Rate
Approx. 300-500 FPM
Sink Rate
220 FPM
Glide Ratio (L/D)
10.5 : 1
Wheel Base
W-62" (outside)
Wheel Base
L-61" (front-to-rear)
Height - Trike folded
2.25 feet w/o prop
Smallest Size folded
W27" x H30" x L55"




The Solairus light trike wing is available in two sizes:
Sail Area
17M
16M
Span
34.7 feet
32.5 feet
Nose Angle
126 degrees
126 degrees
Aspect Ratio
6.33
6.15
Stall at Gross
21 mph
21 mph
Trim Speed
25-30 mph
25-30 mph
Top Speed
45 mph
45 mph
VNE
53 mph
53 mph
Sink Rate
220 FPM
220 FPM
Glide Ratio (L/D)
with Solairus trike
11.5 : 1
11.5 : 1
Glide Ratio (L/D)
with ATF trike
10.5 : 1
10.5 : 1

17M = 390 lbs to 490 lbs Gross
(Approximate Pilot weight: 180 to 290 lbs.)

16M = 320 lbs to 420 lbs Gross
(Approximate Pilot weight: 110 to 220 lbs.)
 
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jedi

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Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
.........

What will never make sense to me for this type of vehicle is meeting a set of criteria (weight, fuel, speeds) that - as it is - allow for only marginally acceptable aircraft... let alone a dual mode vehicle.
...........On the other hand, being willing to have up to a slightly higher empty weight (pick a number... I don't care if it's 255 lbs), a higher wing loading - and thus smaller area - much smaller than required for FAR103 so that it is much more easily foldable/portable/driveable/ridable. And carrying more than the regulated 5 gallons of fuel may not be necessary for many flight profiles/missions, but it would be a nice option

........
I agree - But!

On the other hand it is nice to not be an aircraft so as not to have to comply with FAR 61 and 91 and all the other requirements. I like being off the radar. This makes operations much easier. Also not being a licenced road vehicle makes around town road operations much better. How many trails and parks do not allow motorized vehicles? Why are bicycles so popular?

I say 250 pounds is a lot of equipment to lug around if it is not needed. 65 mph is fast enough for short trips. And, $25 worth of gas (5 gallons) is enough to burn in a reasonable time before pit stops.

Perhaps some day I will want more but I will worry about some day, some day. Right now I have more and want less. Less is more. More difficult perhaps but what I have now is more and it is not good enough.

This is the concept of "Minimum". Think about a flying solo wheel. That is the freedom of flight that is the long term dream of personal flight. We are closer than ever to that goal. Don't let it slip away.

Who said "If you want to make a man happy do not give him more but have him want less." It's true.
 

oriol

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Dec 31, 2009
Messages
770
Location
Barcelona, Spain.
Regarding the project falcon link above,

Although any original and innovative approach in aviation deserves much applause and recognition. I would say that the pilot who would perform the flying tests has definetively guts like the very old first aviation pioneers.



Oriol
 

Hot Wings

Grumpy Cynic
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Messages
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Rocky Mountains
Wy.

Multipurpose Vehicles

In actual practice the operation is contrary to the state law in that they are operated without the flags and in any part of the lane they choose*. The larger 4 place versions are now seen year round.

* some are quite capable of exceeding our 80 MPH interstate speed limit...........




 
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Kingfisher

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Aug 14, 2013
Messages
448
Location
Perth, WA, Australia
Regarding the project falcon link above,

Although any original and innovative approach in aviation deserves much applause and recognition. I would say that the pilot who would perform the flying tests has definetively guts like the very old first aviation pioneers.



Oriol
This may be true, but there is no lack of these gutsy people, just look at the wing suit guys/ base jumpers !;).
 

Kingfisher

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Aug 14, 2013
Messages
448
Location
Perth, WA, Australia
I've looked over project falcon, it's very similar to most of my projects in that they've never gotten off the ground.
Why would someone (bmcj) like a comment like this? Beats me...

I stumbled across the falcon because my ideas of a minimum flying device are that it has to handle like, well, a bird! Imagine the manoeuvrability and speed range this wing could handle! Even a regular hang glider can do amazing things, the bird wing could add the ultimate level of pure flight, if done right. The falcon concept I thought was very well thought through, and I am pleasantly surprised the owner shares all this detail with everyone. I'm quite determined to build a radio controlled version of a wing like that.
 
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