Tube construction: Alternatives to conventional welding

Discussion in 'Tube and Fabric' started by Vigilant1, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. Nov 17, 2019 #281

    Hot Wings

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    There is this method - with which I have no first hand experience.

    Belleville washer method

    /End thread drift Post #269 to here probably should be moved to their own thread? :oops:
     
  2. Nov 17, 2019 #282

    wsimpso1

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    My first comment is going to be predictable - Is there history in any of the airplanes that have the slip fit bolts with failures of these joints. If there are a bunch of airplanes flying and there are no problems, I suspect that the practice, as executed and with the FOS used in the successful designs, is pretty darned good. If there are failures, there is some evidence.

    Let's get a little further into it. First thing to know is that bolts have places that will commence fatigue cracking if the bolts see much load cycling in use. They are protected from fatigue by good design and achieving enough preload that cyclic loading of the joint is really not seen in the bolt. If you have a broken bolt in a well designed joint, the preload was low. If the joint is poorly designed, all bets are off. Now if you want proof that a new joint is or is not moving, put it together, load it in service type loading, then remove the bolts and look for fretting or any other signs that the joint has shifted or moved in use. Use strong light (sunlight over your shoulders is great) and a hand lens to examine the joint faces. Shifting is usually accompanied by fretting, smearing, or multiple sets of marks. No shifting evidence and it is tight enough.

    For a detail discussion of how bolts and rivets work in joints, go through the chapter in your copy of Shigley on fasteners.

    While Shigley does a detailed description of bolted joints, rivets have many of the same issues in design of joints, with an additional issue - rivets are intended to be upset and completely fill the hole they are in to further protect against shifting. Still, if they do not have appropriate preload, and have much load cycling, the joints will shift and fret, further loosen, and the heads will come off through fatigue. In between you will have rivets that "smoke" or spin in use.

    The biggest reason for using close fit bolts or taper bolts or pins is to precisely set the position of a joint and make it go back there again later. If there is just one big bolt forward and another aft and they have clearance, that wing's angle of incidence can change quite a bit if the bolt is ever loosened and retightened... Rigging with the bolts loose while you get everythign set can be a huge headache if there is any positional slop in the joints.

    And yes, sometimes the engineers do not design a joint for friction to hold everything, but instead count on the bearing strength of the holes and shear strength of the fastener shaft to carry the loads.

    Going to the prop examples, yes friction is keeping your prop from shifting or you will see fretting on the interfaces. Those of us running wooden props who find darkened wood against the hub or plate are looking at charred wood from inadequate clamp loads (low bolt torques) - the prop is cycling back and forth on the hub with considerable torque on each cycle making heat that burns the wood and further loosens the joint... Remember that the prop does not just see average torque from the engine. The crank and the prop with it see firing cycle accels that put several times the mean torque on the joint between crank flange and prop.

    The prop bolt bushings have a couple purposes that may not seem obvious:
    They help with repeating centering and repeating alignment (for balance, etc) of the prop when removed and replaced, which helps with balance, tracking, etc;
    They keep the prop on the airplane a LOT longer when the bolts are not tightened enough or moisture related contraction of wood loosens the prop. Omit the bushings with the joint slipping on firing cycles, and the prop and bolt damage will proceed much faster and result in you flying a glider. Yeah, it is a bit of belt and suspenders, but sometimes redundancy has been found to be a good thing...

    Bill
     
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  3. Nov 17, 2019 #283

    BBerson

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    Well, if an alternative to welding is sought and the alternative is drilling holes for rivets and bolts, then the issues of drilling holes needs to considered.
    So on topic for this thread.
     
  4. Nov 17, 2019 #284

    proppastie

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    like it....I imagine the aluminum will turn black....like smoking rivets?
     
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  5. Nov 17, 2019 #285

    proppastie

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    Revision T.....hopefully he did not ruin props from Rev Zero to Rev. R
     
  6. Nov 17, 2019 #286

    Vigilant1

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    That makes sense to me.

    So, in AL tube and gusset construction, does adhesive + rivets help or hurt vs rivets alone?
    Pro goo case: If the bonding increases resistance to slipping, then the adhesive reduces cyclic loading of the rivets in shear and on rivets/holes. Also, the bonding over a large area could improve joint performance under unusual loading directions (crash, failure of other components, etc)

    The case against goo:. If the adhesive provides a soft layer that reduces the grip strength of the rivets or allows vibration/cyclic loading of the rivets in shear (when new, or as the adhesive ages), it could reduce the long term life of the rivets/joint. Also, adhesive slows construction and makes repair/disassembly difficult.

    Maybe, in addition to.prep.of the AL and selection of the adhesive, getting the right thickness of goo is important to keeping the rivets happy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  7. Nov 17, 2019 #287

    proppastie

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    Well one issue also to consider....a flat plate on a round tube does not have lots of square inches of bearing for friction.....might want to just consider the shear of the rivet and bearing of the rivet against the sheet or tube. I think in this case the glue might help but given the geometry of the joint (round against flat) and low shear of epoxy .....testing might be appropriate, and it is hard to glue aluminum.
     
  8. Nov 17, 2019 #288

    litespeed

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    A good argument for using square tubing is the large easy surfaces for either gluing or just rivets.

    Also a lot easier to get a satisfactory job.
     
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  9. Nov 18, 2019 #289

    rv7charlie

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    You are correct that prop bolt torque must be checked periodically. (Not necessarily tightened; I've run wood props on Lycs for almost 3 decades, I live in the deep (wet) south, and after the initial retorque on a new prop, I've rarely gotten any nut movement when rechecking torque). But at least on a Lyc, maintaining torrque has nothing to do with maintaining friction on the prop/flange interface. There are six big press-fit lugs in the flange, pressed at least 1/2" into matching holes in the back of the prop. There will be no friction affecting the back of the prop until loose bolts have allowed the prop to wobble on the flange enough to wallow out the lug mounting holes.

    I suspect that your friend's bolts were broken because they were loaded in bending, as the prop wobbled.

    Charlie
     
  10. Nov 18, 2019 #290

    BBerson

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    Use the hard 3M Scotchweld (like Avid and Kitfox) under the rivets, not Proseal rubber which is not a structural adhesive.
     
  11. Nov 18, 2019 #291

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    The 1/2" lugs are for tight fit in aluminum, I think. I doubt 1/2" of a 4" wood hub is enough. But who knows?
    Older engines made for wood props had a splined hub front plate that kept the bolts from bending.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  12. Nov 18, 2019 #292

    wsimpso1

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    Metal on metal friction is usually well described by a coefficient of friction times the clamping force. This applies until you get to yielding of one or both of the connected members - small faying surfaces (tube on flat qualifies) can reach yield fairly easily, which also results in loss of preload, so they have to be designed carefully. Remember also, that the region in compression around the hole usually extends only one diameter of the fastener beyond the fastener itself. Only in larger surfaces designed as gasketed joints do we spread the loads much further from the fastener itself.

    Yes, getting adhesives to remain bonded and unoxidized on aluminum is tough to achieve, particularly in home shops.

    Billski
     
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