# Operating without a transponder still possible post 2020?

Discussion in 'Instruments / Avionics / Electrical System' started by cluttonfred, Apr 27, 2016.

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1. Jul 14, 2016

### Hot Wings

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If Google gets it's way we may be able to buy something like this for under $100. Sagetech transponder PDF If they get this cheap at only 5 watts and <150 grams why bother trying to find a way around ADS-b? Glider likes this. 2. Jul 14, 2016 ### BJC ### BJC #### Well-Known Member Joined: Oct 7, 2013 Messages: 9,534 Likes Received: 6,308 Location: 97FL, Florida, USA Cheap? Their Mode S transponder price was$3,587 in 2010, and that did not include any wiring, connectors or an antenna.

I must have missed something.

BJC

3. Jul 15, 2016

### proppastie

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its really the old "government specified/certified brick" story.......there are GPS chips in all our phones...and they are really cheap now, but do not hold your breath.

4. Jul 15, 2016

### Hot Wings

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You missed nothing - except that if Google wants to they have the resources to produce essentially the same hardware by the tens of thousands for use in amateur drones and their own future fleet. Google has already consulted with ICAO about how to include the drone fleet in the ICAO numbering system.

IF all this happens we get cheap ADS-b out for maned homebuilt aircraft. Other than the 978MHz radio the amateur drone flyers already have plug and play data/hardware needed for ADS-b out. One can buy systems that use ADS-b in to avoid GA traffic and broadcast the drones location to other similarly equipped drones using FLARM like methods to track and avoid the other drones nearby. It's a small step from this to full 978/1090ES ADS-b.

Still need a $2000 transponder also. Just crazy. 6. Jul 15, 2016 ### BJC ### BJC #### Well-Known Member Joined: Oct 7, 2013 Messages: 9,534 Likes Received: 6,308 Location: 97FL, Florida, USA This is one if the more cost effective that I have seen for E-AB aircraft: ADS600-EXP Still not cheap. BJC BBerson likes this. 7. Jul 15, 2016 ### Turd Ferguson ### Turd Ferguson #### Well-Known Member Joined: Mar 14, 2008 Messages: 4,796 Likes Received: 1,717 Location: Upper midwest in a house Uh, not exactly. The National Maximum Speed Law was on the books for ~20 yrs. In 1995 the law was repealed to return setting maximum speed limits to individual states. The basis of the repeal was lack of data to show it has achieved it's purpose, not because of civil disobedience. You are such a bad @$$C.G. You will fly in "class whatever airspace" without the required equipment right up until you create a safety hazard to other air traffic at which time your shenanigans will end. 8. Jul 15, 2016 ### proppastie ### proppastie #### Well-Known Member Joined: Feb 19, 2012 Messages: 3,792 Likes Received: 1,097 Location: NJ That"s not nice....you could have said that differently....such as "that could be/is not safe".... If the FAA cared about safety for little guys they would have free traffic avoidance devices tied to your cel-phone. Glider likes this. 9. Jul 15, 2016 ### Pops ### Pops #### Well-Known Member Joined: Jan 1, 2013 Messages: 7,124 Likes Received: 6,016 Location: USA. What about people like me that don't like a leash round my neck called a cell phone. Guess SOL. 10. Jul 15, 2016 ### Derswede ### Derswede #### Well-Known Member Joined: Jan 7, 2016 Messages: 839 Likes Received: 255 Location: Central North Carolina There is really no reason for the system to cost that much....hams have had such a system for years.....Google APRS. When the wife and I went to Alaska a few years ago, I got a friend of a friend to take us up back country around the Misty Fjords area. He was running an ADSB system, glass panel and when I commented on it and he told me the cost, I mentioned APRS. He was familiar with it, he had a small 5W APRS beacon in each of his airplanes, which ran on amateur frequencies. Hooked to a GPS, it would give real time tracking. Think one of the interfaces was a "TinyTrak 3", one version even had a low power transmitter built into it. Hook to a GPS (I used a cheap Radio Shack GPS head) and you could see it on a local website. With a TNC, a receiver and an old Palm II, you could monitor on the road anyone with an APRS transmitter in their vehicle. We're talking 200-500 of gear solutions. My whole setup cost less than 400. Would I trust my life on it? No, but it was reliable, and I make the point just to how that none of this is ground breaking tech. Someone is making serious$$ off that gear. An Ipad, a TNC and radiofixed freq T/T and a GPS should not cost$5000/$10,000. Derswede Glider likes this. 11. Jul 15, 2016 ### proppastie ### proppastie #### Well-Known Member Joined: Feb 19, 2012 Messages: 3,792 Likes Received: 1,097 Location: NJ That is not the point, were the vision real, it would be$100 solution instead of a transponder,encoder,adsb etc on an on. do you use a transponder? Keep it in the plane if you do not want to carry it around. Plenty of old men do not have a cell phone, but if they fly they have a radio and transponder, for the most part.

12. Jul 15, 2016

### Pops

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Lot of pilots like me with no electrical system, no transponder, and with just a handheld radio and since living in fly-over country in the middle of nowhere, and fly low and slow , we don't need much of anything. But , I can certainly see the need for low cost equipment for the average pilot. One size does no fit all.

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13. Jul 16, 2016

### cluttonfred

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Well, if ADSB were required and you could meet that requirement with something as simple as a GPS-enabled cell phone and a low-cost tranceiver, then I suspect it would be worth it to get one and just not give the number to anyone. ;-)

14. Jul 16, 2016

### TFF

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By rule ADS B has to be permanent. The aviation only WAAS has one job, position. One reason the phone is a bad choice is the phone is doing multiple things so GPS function is not forefront and separable from the phones other tasks, like shutting down all functions but GPS. Because the aircraft is given its own code, portable means it can be misused on purpose or not.

15. Jul 30, 2016

### Little Scrapper

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TRIG TT22 transponder is .8 pounds. Consumption is rated @ .15 amps idle and .34 amps active. In time these will all be dropping in price.

16. Jul 30, 2016

### Little Scrapper

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Photo cropped from brochure I took from Osh16.

17. Jul 30, 2016

### Little Scrapper

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18. Jul 30, 2016

### BBerson

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So the 250 watts must be intermittent?
I think all transponders are 250 watt. But I always thought it was 250 watt continuous.

19. Jul 31, 2016

### Derswede

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A transponder works on a pulse basis. Dumps a coded signal out in a pulse of RF. a couple of hundred watts of power, or peak power, not CW (continuous wave). So it will be a short pulse when interrogated by radar, then it is off. Basically it is replying to the Drill Seargent "Here, Sir!!" and then it shuts up to let the rest of the roll call go thru. Loud, but short.

I have a 45 w solar panel that can bring a glass matt battery up to full charge in 2-4 hours, depending on sun load. A battery, a panel and a charge controller would do, if you have the space and sufficient sun. I run a 100w radio off of one and let the battery recharge via solar while on the motorcycle, heading to another site. For my low power radio, I charge the 7ah cell via a 5 w panel hanging on my backpack. It can be positioned for best sun reception via a RAM type ball mount. Works fine for my yaesu FT 817. Think aero handheld battery life. The tech is there, integration is what is next.

Derswede

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20. Jul 31, 2016

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