Operating without a transponder still possible post 2020?

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
10,830
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
If Google gets it's way we may be able to buy something like this for under $100.

Sagetech transponder PDF

If they get this cheap at only 5 watts and <150 grams why bother trying to find a way around ADS-b?
Cheap? Their Mode S transponder price was $3,587 in 2010, and that did not include any wiring, connectors or an antenna.

I must have missed something.


BJC
 

proppastie

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
4,438
Location
NJ
its really the old "government specified/certified brick" story.......there are GPS chips in all our phones...and they are really cheap now, but do not hold your breath.
 

Hot Wings

Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
6,915
Location
Rocky Mountains
I must have missed something.


BJC
You missed nothing - except that if Google wants to they have the resources to produce essentially the same hardware by the tens of thousands for use in amateur drones and their own future fleet. Google has already consulted with ICAO about how to include the drone fleet in the ICAO numbering system.

IF all this happens we get cheap ADS-b out for maned homebuilt aircraft. Other than the 978MHz radio the amateur drone flyers already have plug and play data/hardware needed for ADS-b out. One can buy systems that use ADS-b in to avoid GA traffic and broadcast the drones location to other similarly equipped drones using FLARM like methods to track and avoid the other drones nearby. It's a small step from this to full 978/1090ES ADS-b.

I remember seeing the Sagetech system somewhere for closer to $1700, but I can't find the link anymore - so it could just all be in my head. If my memory is correct that represents a 50% reduction in price since the PDF was published.
 

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,984
Location
Port Townsend WA
I have seen ADS-B out for around $1000. Can't remember the name.
Still need a $2000 transponder also. Just crazy.
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,005
Location
Upper midwest in a house
55 mph speed limits on interstate highways, for example. Millions of people eroded and disregarded that one, so to make it look like all these lawbreakers were still "law fearing and abiding citizens", lawmakers subsequentially raised the speed limit to 60, 65, 70, 75, 85...
Uh, not exactly. The National Maximum Speed Law was on the books for ~20 yrs. In 1995 the law was repealed to return setting maximum speed limits to individual states. The basis of the repeal was lack of data to show it has achieved it's purpose, not because of civil disobedience.

You are such a bad @$$ C.G. You will fly in "class whatever airspace" without the required equipment right up until you create a safety hazard to other air traffic at which time your shenanigans will end.
 

proppastie

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
4,438
Location
NJ
You are such a bad @$$ C.G.
That"s not nice....you could have said that differently....such as "that could be/is not safe".... If the FAA cared about safety for little guys they would have free traffic avoidance devices tied to your cel-phone.
 

Pops

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
7,888
Location
USA.
What about people like me that don't like a leash round my neck called a cell phone. Guess SOL.
 

Derswede

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2016
Messages
912
Location
Central North Carolina
There is really no reason for the system to cost that much....hams have had such a system for years.....Google APRS. When the wife and I went to Alaska a few years ago, I got a friend of a friend to take us up back country around the Misty Fjords area. He was running an ADSB system, glass panel and when I commented on it and he told me the cost, I mentioned APRS. He was familiar with it, he had a small 5W APRS beacon in each of his airplanes, which ran on amateur frequencies. Hooked to a GPS, it would give real time tracking. Think one of the interfaces was a "TinyTrak 3", one version even had a low power transmitter built into it. Hook to a GPS (I used a cheap Radio Shack GPS head) and you could see it on a local website. With a TNC, a receiver and an old Palm II, you could monitor on the road anyone with an APRS transmitter in their vehicle. We're talking $200-500 of gear solutions. My whole setup cost less than $400. Would I trust my life on it? No, but it was reliable, and I make the point just to how that none of this is ground breaking tech. Someone is making serious $$ off that gear. An Ipad, a TNC and radiofixed freq T/T and a GPS should not cost $5000/$10,000.

Derswede
 

proppastie

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
4,438
Location
NJ
What about people like me that don't like a leash round my neck called a cell phone. Guess SOL.
That is not the point, were the vision real, it would be $100 solution instead of a transponder,encoder,adsb etc on an on. do you use a transponder? Keep it in the plane if you do not want to carry it around. Plenty of old men do not have a cell phone, but if they fly they have a radio and transponder, for the most part.
 

Pops

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
7,888
Location
USA.
That is not the point, were the vision real, it would be $100 solution instead of a transponder,encoder,adsb etc on an on. do you use a transponder? Keep it in the plane if you do not want to carry it around. Plenty of old men do not have a cell phone, but if they fly they have a radio and transponder, for the most part.
Lot of pilots like me with no electrical system, no transponder, and with just a handheld radio and since living in fly-over country in the middle of nowhere, and fly low and slow , we don't need much of anything. But , I can certainly see the need for low cost equipment for the average pilot. One size does no fit all.
 

cluttonfred

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
7,139
Location
World traveler
What about people like me that don't like a leash round my neck called a cell phone. Guess SOL.
Well, if ADSB were required and you could meet that requirement with something as simple as a GPS-enabled cell phone and a low-cost tranceiver, then I suspect it would be worth it to get one and just not give the number to anyone. ;-)
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
12,587
Location
Memphis, TN
By rule ADS B has to be permanent. The aviation only WAAS has one job, position. One reason the phone is a bad choice is the phone is doing multiple things so GPS function is not forefront and separable from the phones other tasks, like shutting down all functions but GPS. Because the aircraft is given its own code, portable means it can be misused on purpose or not.
 

Little Scrapper

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
5,658
Location
Wisconsin
TRIG TT22 transponder is .8 pounds. Consumption is rated @ .15 amps idle and .34 amps active. In time these will all be dropping in price.
 

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,984
Location
Port Townsend WA
TRIG TT22 transponder is .8 pounds. Consumption is rated @ .15 amps idle and .34 amps active. In time these will all be dropping in price.
So the 250 watts must be intermittent?
I think all transponders are 250 watt. But I always thought it was 250 watt continuous.
 

Derswede

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2016
Messages
912
Location
Central North Carolina
So the 250 watts must be intermittent?
I think all transponders are 250 watt. But I always thought it was 250 watt continuous.
A transponder works on a pulse basis. Dumps a coded signal out in a pulse of RF. a couple of hundred watts of power, or peak power, not CW (continuous wave). So it will be a short pulse when interrogated by radar, then it is off. Basically it is replying to the Drill Seargent "Here, Sir!!" and then it shuts up to let the rest of the roll call go thru. Loud, but short.

I have a 45 w solar panel that can bring a glass matt battery up to full charge in 2-4 hours, depending on sun load. A battery, a panel and a charge controller would do, if you have the space and sufficient sun. I run a 100w radio off of one and let the battery recharge via solar while on the motorcycle, heading to another site. For my low power radio, I charge the 7ah cell via a 5 w panel hanging on my backpack. It can be positioned for best sun reception via a RAM type ball mount. Works fine for my yaesu FT 817. Think aero handheld battery life. The tech is there, integration is what is next.

Derswede
 
2
Top