Operating without a transponder still possible post 2020?

Discussion in 'Instruments / Avionics / Electrical System' started by cluttonfred, Apr 27, 2016.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Apr 27, 2016 #1

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,362
    Likes Received:
    2,230
    Location:
    World traveler
    According to the font of all knowledge, Wikipedia ;-), "by 2020 all aircraft owners will be required to have ADS-B Out capabilities when operating in any airspace that currently requires a transponder (airspace classes A, B, and C, and airspace class E at certain altitudes)" in the USA.

    Has there been any indication that the ability to operate without a transponder in aircraft without an engine-driven electrical system will change after 2020? Will the ADS-B requirement increase the amount of airspace not normally open to aircraft without a transponder?

    I am just thinking about whether or not it really makes sense to plan an aircraft without an engine-driven electrical system in the next few years, or whether there will be so many restrictions on where I can fly that I may as well bite the bullet.

    Cheers,

    Matthew
     
  2. Apr 27, 2016 #2

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,029
    Likes Received:
    2,342
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    I think you will need to get both the transponder and an ADS-B, to fly in those airspaces.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2016 #3

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,362
    Likes Received:
    2,230
    Location:
    World traveler
    Right, but isn't that already the case unless you receive prior approval? Will ADSB change anything in 2020 in that respect?
     
  4. Apr 27, 2016 #4

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    That's my understanding, that the "What you must have to fly where" rules haven't changed, other than requiring ADS-B out as well as the transponder. ADS-B will be required within the 30-mile veil around Class B, with the exception of aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems (same as the current rule for transponders).

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Glider and Jon Ferguson like this.
  5. Apr 29, 2016 #5

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,789
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Location:
    NJ
    they just did something to the gliders...not sure what, but thought they needed transponders, not sure where or how high. That could be bad news in the future for part 103 or aircraft without engine-driven electrical systems
     
  6. Apr 29, 2016 #6

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Rockiedog2

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    1,604
    thankfully so far I can avoid that airspace. occasionally tho I want to enter it....I would have gone to meet TFF but he's in the Mem Class B. I got no txp, mode c or comm
     
  7. Jul 13, 2016 #7

    Arthur Brown

    Arthur Brown

    Arthur Brown

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    London
    With the improvement in battery cells and solar PV cells, will moderate avionics inc transponder be possible without an engine alternator?

    Can anyone actually give the rated current draw of a 12 or 24/28 volt transponder, and the rest of a set of avionics. I'd be reasonable certain that by then with some technological advances 12v 5a will be supportable from LiPo batteries for very moderate weight and a 40 ish watt solar panel may well be possible to delay discharge. Realistically you only need electricity for the flight duration that a tank of fuel provides.
     
  8. Jul 13, 2016 #8

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,796
    Likes Received:
    1,717
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    If I just have a local flying airplane and live in Class E/G airspace, like I do, no way I'm installing that garbage. It should still be possible to fly coast to coast without an electrical system although they are trying to make it difficult.
     
  9. Jul 13, 2016 #9

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2013
    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    1,446
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    One of the Fly Baby group doesn't have an electrical system, and flies his plane with a radio and a transponder. Just has a moderately-sized motorcycle battery, and it does him fine.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  10. Jul 13, 2016 #10

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2012
    Messages:
    3,789
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Location:
    NJ
    so after 2020 in order to be seen by radar in a high traffic environment.....radio,transponder,encoder,ADSB out,.....how big a battery for 2 hr. of flight?, Those transmitters squirt out some juice.
     
  11. Jul 13, 2016 #11

    fly2kads

    fly2kads

    fly2kads

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,453
    Likes Received:
    529
    Location:
    Justin, TX
    I hope that some of our active glider pilot friends will chime in, but I do know that there are an increasing number of sailplanes equipped with transponders, relying on battery power. I recall seeing a pretty slick setup where the sailplane's trailer had a solar panel on top for keeping the battery charged between flights.

    One of the retailers of soaring "stuff" has put together this handy comparison chart, which includes power consumption:
    https://www.cumulus-soaring.com/transponders.htm#Transponder_Comparison_Table

    It looks like "typical" current ranges from .34 to .7 amps. I think this typical current is an average value, since the transponder cycles between standby and transmission modes.
     
  12. Jul 14, 2016 #12

    Glider

    Glider

    Glider

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    North Bumble, Alabama / USA
    I wish we could move beyond the system of radars. and transponders. Maybe it is impractical, but I don't see why a terrestrial/space cell infrastructure couldn't be used to receive, and report, positions. Maybe the system wants to geographically distribute controllers to protect the whole system from regional failures.

    Ham radio has APRS, and with some simple software, could provide this kind of functionality via terrestrial and space asserts.
     
  13. Jul 14, 2016 #13

    fredoyster

    fredoyster

    fredoyster

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    Monterey Bay, CA
    That's right. A LiPo battery with a small solar panel and controller will be plenty. Modern transponders and modern comms draw less than an amp average. Transponders put out 250 watts or so, but for microseconds, so the average power is still very low. Comms can draw 5 amps or more on transmit, maybe a couple amps if you're driving a speaker turned up loud, but otherwise less than an amp.
     
  14. Jul 14, 2016 #14

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,796
    Likes Received:
    1,717
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    Don't throw in the towel just yet. ADS-B won't be required until the date comes with no modifications. There is a lot of push for modification as once again the FAA wants equipment that is already obsolete.
     
    Glider likes this.
  15. Jul 14, 2016 #15

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,029
    Likes Received:
    2,342
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    A system called "Teleran" was invented in 1945. A television screen in the cockpit gave the pilot a radar view of traffic and navigation all in one.
    The airborne receiver could be very cheap.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/teleran
     
    Glider likes this.
  16. Jul 14, 2016 #16

    Dana

    Dana

    Dana

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    8,621
    Likes Received:
    3,007
    Location:
    CT, USA
    Invented, or proposed? It would have been very difficult to achieve with 1945 technology.

    Dana
     
  17. Jul 14, 2016 #17

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,362
    Likes Received:
    2,230
    Location:
    World traveler
    Personally, I don't mind the idea that ADSB, preferably integrated out and in, would become required for everyone as long as the weight, power consumption and cost are brought down to reasonable levels. With today's technology it just should not require thousands of dollars--that's the TSO and insurance cost driving it up, not the cost to make the equipment. FAA needs to be engaged with manufacturers to create reasonable specs that that can be met without excessive costs to actually encourage everyone to adopt the technology willingly, from Citation jets to gliders.
     
    BJC likes this.
  18. Jul 14, 2016 #18

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,029
    Likes Received:
    2,342
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    I think invented by RCA. Not sure if they demonstrated it. It gives the pilot a radar picture in the cockpit for self seperation.
    The FAA went with ground based controllers. The units would have been heavy then. Today is different, a cell phone could do it.
    Each airport could have a 5 watt transmitter and small radar unit to broadcast a map that the pilot would use to approach with text instructions to hold if needed. All computer generated.
    The whole Teleran system was detailed in Fred Wiecks book. (Ercoupe designer)
     
    Pops likes this.
  19. Jul 14, 2016 #19

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,122
    Likes Received:
    6,013
    Location:
    USA.

    Fred Wiecks was way ahead of the time in several areas. I got the privilege to spent some time talking with him at Osh back in the 70's.
     
    BBerson likes this.
  20. Jul 14, 2016 #20

    Arthur Brown

    Arthur Brown

    Arthur Brown

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    London
    Personally I think that today's avionics will be "old" in four years and something will be waiting to replace it, but I suspect that the best of the then "old Tech" will be supportable from dry or rechargeable batteries for long enough to cover a day of flying.

    With (now -it may be beaten by then!) good retail technology a 40w solar panel built into the airframe would keep a LiPo battery in good order for all the flying you would want to do in a day while powering some useful nav and coms.

    There is a clip on Youtube of a model plane using inbuilt solar panels for flight power.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white