How to have an experimental C-85 on my Homebuilt aircraft ?

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by Pops, Oct 30, 2019.

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  1. Oct 30, 2019 #1

    Pops

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    What do I need to do to have an experimental C-85 engine on my homebuilt? I bought an engine that was minus parts and was one time on a C-140 over 30 years ago and the engine was stored for many years. Was less intake spider, carb, intake tubes , oil tank, etc. I bought parts that were missing and did a MOH.
     
  2. Oct 30, 2019 #2

    jedi

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    No. You may install a certified engine or an experimental engine.Keeping it certified will increase the value of the engine for resale.
     
  3. Oct 30, 2019 #3

    Turd Ferguson

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    It is bolted to an experimental aircraft so there is nothing you need to do. Enjoy the shortened test period and move on to Phase II.
     
  4. Oct 30, 2019 #4

    Pops

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    I am not interested in the resale value of the engine. If I were buying a completed homebuilt, I would not want to buy one with a certified engine. Might as well just buy a certified airplane.
    IF you do a good test on the aircraft , you will be flying more that the 25 hrs so that means nothing to me. I had about 35 hrs on the SSSC in test flying just to get all the test data and trimmed where I wanted. Same for the Falconar F-12 back in 1980.
    Does the engine data plate stay on the case? The last time I built an homebuilt airplane with a Lyc engine built from parts was in 1980. Things change with the FAA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
  5. Oct 30, 2019 #5

    Turd Ferguson

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    There is no requirement to remove the dataplate from the engine.
     
  6. Oct 30, 2019 #6

    Dana

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    If you did the MOH yourself without an A&P signoff, is it still a certified engine?

    Some have argued that if it's certified with the data plate still attached, its subject to any AD's that may apply to the engine.

    The data plate for my engine is in an envelope with the logbooks.
     
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  7. Oct 30, 2019 #7

    Pops

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    If you remove----- Look. FAR 45.13 (c)
    I don't know, but I also always heard that if it's certified with the data plate still attached, its subject to any AD's that my apply to the engine.
     
  8. Oct 30, 2019 #8

    Turd Ferguson

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    The AD issue should have been resolved on 3/3/12 with publication of AC 39-7D.

    Whether or not an AD applies is determined by the applicability section of the AD by use of the language "TC'd or non-TC'd aircraft."
     
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  9. Oct 30, 2019 #9

    D Hillberg

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    If that engine, Propeller, appliance or other part has a data tag and that part number & serial number is listed and the body of the Airworthiness Directive states "On all civil Aircraft" you shall comply with the instructions of that directive on that aircraft certificated in Normal, Utility, Special or experimental category...

    So you can remove the tag substituting it with your own [As experimental you are the manufacture] and wing it.

    There's also a section in the FARs to inspect and return the items back to certified - but most the time it is cost prohibitive.

    Joe Bobs Sawz-all modified TGIO470B-A
    SN#1 5000 HP @ 5200 RPM
    USE 97 OCT. BOAT GAS FROM AM-PM
    OIL CAP 25 GAL 10/09/2019
     
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  10. Oct 30, 2019 #10

    blane.c

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    If it's modified, is it certified?
     
  11. Oct 30, 2019 #11

    TFF

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    If you take the data plate off where it’s not truly identifiable, it becomes an experimental engine. It does not relieve the ADs. Read modern AD language and it states grinding off the part numbers does not relieve you. They still know it’s a Continental, just not which. Paperwork should not be an issue. It’s really not certified any more but if it is stated as still in certified state, they will can give you less time because it is a “known” entity. If you overhauled it with out an A&P signature,It’s not by default.
     
  12. Oct 30, 2019 #12

    Turd Ferguson

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    Cut and pasted from AC 39-7D:


    So if Pop's has an AD on his C-85 and the applicability section of the AD does not specifically say the AD applies to engines installed on non-TC'd aircraft, he doesn't have to comply.

    Now the big question. How many AD's are issued for non-TC'd aircraft?
     
  13. Oct 30, 2019 #13

    Pops

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    Since I'm the manufacture, think I will make a serial number data plate for the engine. Same as coming up with a number to use for the serial number for the airframe. Building from my own plans.
    On the SSSC I used my birthday for the serial number for the airplane. I'll use my wife's birthday as the serial number for the JMR Special. If I forget that birthday, I'm in big trouble :)
     
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  14. Oct 30, 2019 #14

    proppastie

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    ah yes ...but is a "specific engine" without a tag still a "specific engine"?....that it is experimental you can do the AD's your self.
     
  15. Oct 31, 2019 #15

    Rockiedog2

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    Pops

    Many knowledgeable replies.

    Same thing I ran into on SS1. Small Continental built up by JB decades ago from parts on hand made to fit. Rebuilt and installed on my plane; no data plate. Inspector showed up and said that's a Continental you're gonna have to do the ADs and document. I said "No sir it's not a Continental it just looks like one; nobody knows what's in it and there's no data plate. What motor do you want me to do the ADs for; lemme ask you a question...if it was a VW or a Briggs would you require me to do the ADs?" He thought about that for a minute or 2 and signed it off.

    This dude was a big time DAR or whatever they are called and normally did heavy turbine field approval work or something like that. He actually looked at the plane and even the placards and other stuff I never saw one look at before. Most just lkd at the p/w and signed it off after handing them the check.

    Lots of those guys like to do their own thing on inspections...AN hdwe etc. If we can run a half VDub we can run stove bolts along with it is the way I see it. Lotsa CYA and power plays out there; not unusual in the EAA world...wannabes that didn't make the pro world and now got a little power. Look at the regs and AC and see that most of what is now taken by some as required is advisory only. It's **experimental** aviation.

    Well, it's been about 40 years since I lkd at that stuff so please point out the reference for me and I will gladly stand corrected.

    Pops, I think it all depends on your DAR as to what he will accept. We can't make him sign it off and yeh he's probably sincerely concerned about your/others safety and his CYA. He can always fall back on his judgement of the safety thing. So it goes to who we pick for the inspection. And maybe a phone call and a few questions before hand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  16. Oct 31, 2019 #16

    Toobuilder

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    Seems like we have this discussion every year or so...

    What is colloquiuly known as a "certified" engine on a homebuilts is actually an impossibility. An engine either conforms to the TCDS or it does not. In the "certified" world, conformance means it's airworthy, and non conformance means it's NOT airworthy. There are many requirements beyond AD's and data plates to ensure conformance with the TCDS and ALL must be met - one does not get to pick and choose. One big one that CAN'T on an E-AB is "configuration control". Since ANYONE can work on, maintain, modify, and rebuild an E-AB and there is NO requirement to document such actions, there is no way to ensure continued compliance with the TCDS. Hang a brand new TCDS compliant Lycoming on the nose of an E-AB, fly it once, and suddenly you have zero proof it has not been "fouled" by a non certificated mechanic performing perfectly legal, but non TCDS maintenance.

    The two maintenance concepts are simply in total opposition.
     
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  17. Oct 31, 2019 #17

    TFF

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    Note 1: This AD applies to each engine identified in the preceding applicability provision, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of this AD. For engines that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that the performance of the requirements of this AD is affected, the owner/operator must request approval for an alternative method of compliance in accordance with paragraph (e) of this AD. The request should include an
    4
    assessment of the effect of the modification, alteration, or repair on the unsafe condition addressed by this AD; and, if the unsafe condition has not been eliminated, the request sho uld include specific proposed actions to address it.

    I pulled this from a fuel pump AD on a Lycoming. You have to read each AD. They can be vastly different. You have to decide if it is appropriate. The applicability of maintenance is the responsibility of the owner. Doing it right is the responsibility of the mechanic contracted. If an owner wants to fly without an annual, it’s his prerogative. A mechanic does not care. A mechanic cares, if contracted to fix the airplane, to fulfill that legal obligation to both the government and the owner. One may want to hold a repairmans certificate, but remember you are now on the hook for every legal detail. Owner and mechanic.

    A friend just got his airplane paperwork fixed. It could have been bad. Rebuilt older home built that had been a bag of parts. Paperwork had problems even though it had an airworthiness cert. He put a smaller Lycoming on it and asked the local FSDO for new operating instructions. Can of worms. They almost turned it all into parts again. In the end they essentially penalized the aircraft with a new 40 hour fly off like it was a new build. CYA. I ran the AD search but the owner presented it to the inspector. We found half complied with in the log. Two he is verifying on his own. If he had put the same engine back on , it would have floated around with the bad paperwork waiting for a day to surface. It could have found an inspector not so generous. The inspectors know paperwork; they don’t know parts usually. The inspector wanted to see paperwork.
     
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  18. Oct 31, 2019 #18

    Turd Ferguson

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    You guys are overthinking this because the likelyhood of an AD being issued for a non-TC'd aircraft (homebuilt) is near zilch. The 2012 policy change was major victory for E-A/B aircraft. If the engine has a dataplate on it, leave the dataplate on it and go fly. If it doesn't have a dataplate, just go fly.
     
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  19. Oct 31, 2019 #19

    Pops

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    Thanks Joe. I like that. It looks somewhat like a Cont, but since there is no data plate, can't be sure and can't be sure of which one.
     
  20. Oct 31, 2019 #20

    TFF

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    Although it’s an option, the FAA could AD your one specific aircraft. They would have to make an example although I think they leaned on RV once. What is the question here is can they AD parts I use? That answer is yes. All the parts that have ADs have ADs.
     

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