Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Aug 24, 2019 #2661

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,318
    Likes Received:
    6,092
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Perhaps they read him his Miranda rights https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/miranda+rights


    BJC
     
  2. Aug 24, 2019 #2662

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,659
    Likes Received:
    2,188
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Do the pilots generally refuse to comment in an accident? Or only when they are criminally negligent with drinking or something.?
     
  3. Aug 24, 2019 #2663

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,318
    Likes Received:
    6,092
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    I know a former Navy fighter pilot, ATP, et al, corporate pilot, and A&P IA, who says “Don’t tell them anything. Don’t show them your log book. Make then request information in writing. Get a lawyer.”

    Seems like good advice to me.


    BJC
     
  4. Aug 24, 2019 #2664

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,668
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    The guy in the right seat was even more experienced which makes me wonder....

    I think you'd be surprised by the number of unstable approaches in commercial operations. When I reviewed FOQA data the number of unstable approaches per the company criteria was really quite high. So high that we only looked at the ones that were "way outside the boundaries." In almost all of those cases the pilots pulled off an uneventful landing. Unfortunately, it's the successfully salvaged approaches that encourage more of the same.

    This approached needed to be on the numbers to make it work and it wasn't. I guarantee there was a gut feeling that it wasn't going to work before the plane touched the ground - the first time.
     
  5. Aug 24, 2019 #2665

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,431
    Likes Received:
    3,171
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Especially the NTSB, never mention lawyer. They are federal agents like a game warden. They are protected from the runaround they can give you. They can exclude your lawyer in an interrogation. They are not civil court. Make answers as close to yes/no and add no color. Most of the time they need to justify their jobs and will make a mountain out of a molehill when caseloads are low. NTSB reports can only report one root cause as the definitive cause. Chain of events after are incidental.
     
    flyrite likes this.
  6. Aug 24, 2019 #2666

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,318
    Likes Received:
    6,092
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Turd:

    The runway there is about 4,500 feet long. Is that marginal for the version of the Citation that wrecked?

    I watched a Lear (Model 23 or 24?) attempt a landing on a 3,677 foot runway once. He added power just before touchdown, and barely managed a go-around. He came back and touched down on the numbers and still used most of the runway.


    BJC
     
  7. Aug 24, 2019 #2667

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,659
    Likes Received:
    2,188
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    The smaller Citations use our 3000 foot runway. Mostly empty, of course. I don't think any Lear would ever come here.
     
  8. Aug 25, 2019 #2668

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,431
    Likes Received:
    3,171
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    We have a Lear 35 based at my airport and some lawyers come in on a middle sized Citation a couple of times a week along with turboprops. 3800 ft. From what I understand insurance is by self when they are using the airport. The insurance companies want 4000 ft. It keeps lots of traffic away thankfully. It’s the closest runway to the downtown. It would be only jets if it was made longer. It’s fun to watch the jets fly in and out, but loose an engine or brakes and they are probably making some news.
     
  9. Aug 25, 2019 #2669

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,668
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    It is marginal but should be doable. They needed 4000-ish to be legal (available distance 40% > than required) + 5-600 ft of padding on top of that. A book landing should have put them at taxi speed with 1000 feet of pavement remaining. The report indicates last touchdown was ~1000' from the overrun end of the runway. It will be interesting to see what kind of audibles were recorded on the CVR because high sink rate is required to bounce like that.
     
    SVSUSteve and BJC like this.
  10. Aug 25, 2019 #2670

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,318
    Likes Received:
    6,092
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Thanks, Turd.


    BJC
     
  11. Aug 25, 2019 #2671

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,851
    Likes Received:
    915
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    It’s actually pretty simple: the “warm” feeling is due to blood flow being distributed to the superficial parts of the body required for movement. The “cold” feeling is good if brutally unpleasant. Side note: That is said as someone who was dunked into a tank of 28 degree saltwater in nothing but a pair of UDT swim trunks to get a baseline before repeating the process wearing a prototype survival suit while I was in the military. For $5000 tax free...totally worth it. One of my friends is a former SEAL and he accuses me of being “bat**** crazy” for volunteering for that.

    The reason it is good is because the feeling of “cold” your body reserving blood flow to the parts of your body necessary for survival. Think of swimming unnecessarily as akin to drinking alcohol to “warm up”. It’s the heat leaving you that makes you feel warm.
     
    litespeed likes this.
  12. Aug 25, 2019 #2672

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,851
    Likes Received:
    915
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Agreed.
     
  13. Aug 25, 2019 #2673

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    11,659
    Likes Received:
    2,188
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    A pilot friend died of hypothermia after two days trying to get his ski-plane unstuck from a frozen lake overflow hazard. I think he removed much of his clothing at the end. Must of felt warm.
     
  14. Aug 25, 2019 #2674

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,851
    Likes Received:
    915
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    M
    It’s called paradoxical undressing. No one is exactly sure why it happens. I actually discussed it a bit on the forensics podcast I do while trying to debunk the Dyatlov Pass “incident”. If anyone wants to know more (or needs a something to help them sleep): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-skelecast/id1431121639?i=1000418082541
     
    litespeed likes this.
  15. Aug 25, 2019 #2675

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,208
    Likes Received:
    2,178
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    We all know that was a big foot protecting it's territory. :p
     
  16. Aug 25, 2019 #2676

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,851
    Likes Received:
    915
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    *cracks knuckles* Them thar be fighting words!
     
    Hot Wings likes this.
  17. Aug 25, 2019 #2677

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    206
    Location:
    YMM
    I haven't even overflown the urals to date. Thankyou very much. :D
     
  18. Aug 26, 2019 #2678

    PMD

    PMD

    PMD

    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Martensville SK
    Missing from the hypothermia discussion: the loss of (thermal) energy from the body is a function of temperature differential, surface area, relative mass and co-efficient of thermal conductivity. ALL of those factors are extreme in cold water against bare skin. When you start exercising, your overall body temperature goes up, making a lot more heat available (against your finite reserves) to transfer into the water. Worse yet, flailing your limbs moves water against the radiant surface, more efficiently cooling your body,,,all exactly what you do NOT want to do to survive. The posture of grabbing your knees and tucking up covers a large area of radiating surface and tends to trap water, that, if you can keep it in place, warms a bit and reduces the delta T.

    The experienced rescue guys have it right. BTW: I didn't get my SCUBA training until in my '60s, but still stuck with a testostorone flooded mind that thought I could do ANYTHING. I passed my required swimming time/distance, but I can tell you I knew damned well that I had hit my limit. Confidence is a ***** when it gets critical.
     
    SVSUSteve likes this.
  19. Aug 26, 2019 #2679

    litespeed

    litespeed

    litespeed

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,390
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    Sydney
    Yes,

    This all follows from what I had stated previously, I had covered the temperature differential.
    The only snag is when in the water the ability to keep afloat is the most important, so that ball up method will not work.

    So lie on back, float, reduce movement to the minimum required to maintain a stable float and keep your face above the water.

    Wait for rescue.
     
  20. Aug 26, 2019 #2680

    Charles_says

    Charles_says

    Charles_says

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 27, 2019
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    48
    I got my PADI/ YMCA dual certification in 1976, I think.. It was an awful long time ago, so it may have been a year or two earlier....but somewhere in my mid 30's... memory of those days is fleeting...
    Anyhow I concur. We dove for certification in Lake Wallenpawpac (upstate NY) in October. I remember the month as if it were yesterday. Funny how some things stick in your mind.
    But the water temp was in the mid 60's, so we got a bit of survival training at the same time.
    Even though outfitted in a "wet suit" so named because you allow water into the suit via the neckline, wrist, and ankles, replacing the warm body heated air, and that ICE COLD water, gets trapped by the suit and your body heats that water, which then insulates your body from a lot of the cold water surrounding it.

    When you first enter the icy water, it's like someone shoving 200 lbs of icicles into your nice warm bedclothes.
    The sudden shock, takes your breath away for a short time, and you gasp for breath from the demand regulator. It lasts for about 15 -20 seconds, till your body overcomes the shock, and the water in the suit gains some heat from your body. you can still feel the cold, but it isn't as bad,
    until ...Just when you think it's over... a trapped air bubble in the suit escapes up your spine, and is immediately replaced with fresh icy water !!
    !! HELLO !!!

    Think about being in a gym, and exercising... you work up a sweat....( That's the body's way of exhausting excess heat) the sweat evaporates.
    and like an air conditioner the body begins to cool.
    In the water, which absorbs heat many times faster than air can, that body heat is leaving the body faster. Now accelerate the water flow around it, (Think of standing in front of a fan...) and you increase the rate which that water absorbs heat. So..... swimming, is counter productive, and by limiting movement you will
    survive longer.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white