# Crashes in the News - Thread

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by choppergirl, Jun 8, 2016.

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1. Aug 23, 2019

### SVSUSteve

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Yup. Three.

2. Aug 23, 2019

### pictsidhe

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I have limited swimming experience. My cold water exprience has been that if I keep swimming, I keep warm. If I stop, I get cold quickly. I do have cold weather hiking experience. That was quite conclusive. Stop moving for too long while underdressed and you will probably never move again. I do have unusual stamina, so that probably skews things too.
I've also never been rescued. I've got myself out of stupid situations...

3. Aug 23, 2019

### BBerson

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I watched again. He said they were " on a photo shoot over a marine layer, or whatever".
And he said "it quit at 3000agl" "tried to start it down to 1000agl" .

So I think a clean Bonanza should glide 12 to one. I remember Mooney claimed 15 to one in an advertisement with a feathered prop. But call it 10 to one, he would have 30,000 feet of glide back. About 5.7 miles glide.
I would never go out that far solo and absolutely not with a passenger. Just no reason.

4. Aug 23, 2019

### litespeed

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Since it is obvious that a rescue of some form is coming - the mate in the plane above radioed it in. And you have a partner to worry about.

To swim for it is madness. You will tire very easily. You will likely loose your partner as its easy to move apart in the moving water. To try and keep with each other requires even more energy.

You will definitely use far more energy and drop your core temp much faster than treading water. Another aspect is to move a mile you are greatly increasing the risk that all that splashing about will attract a shark or many. They sense erratic movement and assume it is a injured animal. They may only taste you- but thats all it takes.

And if you do manage to not get eaten, not lose your partner you have a search team looking in the wrong place. If the waves get up it is very hard to find you.

Just relax and hold hands outstretched with your partner and lie on your backs to float. It uses the least energy and is easier to spot from above.

There is a vast difference in loss of body heat when in water than air. Every bit of energy used to swim is energy your body can not use to maintain core temp and life. Also you might make it but will your passenger?

When in doubt- don't try and be a hero, drowned is not heroic.

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5. Aug 23, 2019

### bmcj

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I suspect that swimming will make you feel warmer because the muscles are working, but it is expending energy at a high rate, energy that otherwise could sustain your core much longer had you remained stationary.

6. Aug 23, 2019

### bmcj

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Seaplane crash, 2 on board with minor injuries.

7. Aug 23, 2019

### Himat

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Picking up a light plane from 220m (720 feet) sound like a rather straight forward job with the right equipment. Even a small subsea construction vessel operating in the North Sea have ROV’s and cranes that reach down to 500m depth. But if a suitable vessel has to mobilized from far away the cost rise.

(Side note, once out testing we lost an AUV at 1300m water depth. Within 24 hours it was picked up by a subsea construction vessel. Pretty much the time they used to stop their work and sail to the site. I do not know the cost, but I guess the vessel day rate was something like US$100 000 a day then. But that was a huge ship.) 8. Aug 23, 2019 ### BJC ### BJC #### Well-Known Member Joined: Oct 7, 2013 Messages: 9,288 Likes Received: 6,058 Location: 97FL, Florida, USA What would be the benefit of recovering the wrecked Bonanza, even if the cost were insignificant? The gasoline likely has already seeped into the ocean, and if not, likely would be lost during any recovery. The oil in the engine is not a significant pollutant, compared to the emissions of the recovery equipment. The probability that some new safety-related AD will come from an engine inspection. BJC 9. Aug 23, 2019 ### bmcj ### bmcj #### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter Joined: Apr 10, 2007 Messages: 12,689 Likes Received: 4,697 Location: Fresno, California On top of which, they would probably end up concluding that the engine failure was due to excessive amounts of seawater in the fuel tanks. Himat, BJC and Derswede like this. 10. Aug 23, 2019 ### wktaylor ### wktaylor #### Well-Known Member Joined: Sep 5, 2003 Messages: 84 Likes Received: 30 Location: Midwest USA SVSUSteve... sounds like You are an experienced aircraft investigator, also? Forgive my base-assumptions... my investigations were all USAF acft [2 from relatively shallow ocean-coastal sites]. Based on Your statement, I've grossly underestimated the 'depth' that the acft may have sunk-into... so relatively close to shore. OK-OK, recovering acft from the ocean starts with 'where-the-hell-is-the-wreckage-now'... which can be trickier than it seems... especially with strong ocean currents, a steep sea-floor gradient/condition, imprecise sink-coordinates and 'passage of time'. Sadly You are right... NTSB [rarely FAA, as I'd mentioned] has relatively low/NO incentive to recover GA wreckage in deep water [or even remote land-terrain], unless there is an urgent [high visibility] need to know**. NTSB rarely investigates homebuilt or light GA acft accidents... sometimes just a 'look-see' and a 'paperwork-drill'... because there is 'usually' no value added for public safety... and homebuilts [EXPERTMENTAL ACFT] are 'fly-at-your-own-risk'. HOWEVER... just taking a swing... an estimated +$750K Beechcraft with fresh Mod's and a sudden power loss might in optimum flight conditions, MIGHT encourage the insurance company [with assist from NTSB] to salvage the wreckage for detailed joint inspection.

**Example: JFK-Jr crash off enroute to Martha's Vineyard.

11. Aug 23, 2019

### Charles_says

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From the video, I understood him to be out of sight of land. At least there were no shots of a shoreline...
He states that it took 3-4 sumps to clear the debris from the tank.
If there's that much debris, you don't know you got it all, even if
the fuel runs clear.
That alone, would have kept me on the ground, pulling and flushing the tanks especially after "Numerous" (undisclosed) mods.
But hey, I have taken a liking to living, in the past 3/4 century!

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12. Aug 23, 2019

### radfordc

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13. Aug 24, 2019

### pictsidhe

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I would have to expend energy to keep warm. Why not expend that energy towards shore? I would also have to expend energy to 'float'. Which is something I won't do if I stop moving, again, why not shorewards? I would use minimum speed to keep my mouth above water. Good point about the sharks, though...
It was very silly flying that far from shore with no bouyancy aids. Or maybe he didn't think of trying to restart while gliding towards shore?
The hardest part about recovery would be finding it. I'd be tempted to offer a \$50k prize to anyone who located it.

14. Aug 24, 2019

### Turd Ferguson

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If an insurance company smells fraud they will pull out all the stops.

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15. Aug 24, 2019

### pictsidhe

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I like the way the article makes out that it was a mechanical failiure. Nothing at all to do with the plane slamming hard enough into the runway on a bad landing to break the gear...

But what I really, really liked was the sign to the left of the aircraft. Was that there when it crashed?

Edit, it was there when the crash happened.

Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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16. Aug 24, 2019

### Hot Wings

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Having been an avid swimmer, PADI at 12 and on the swim teem in HS, I can second SVSUSteve's assertion. The local lake here never gets much above the mid 60's and I spent a LOT of time there. Water works just like wind chill, but even more so. When snorkeling for crayfish we learned real quick that even a thin T-shirt cut down on the heat transfer while in motion. The thermocline at 10 to 15 feet was even colder. "Grab those critters fast and head back to the warm topside"

I still remember a day trying to surf at Santa Cruz. The locals must have though we were crazy. We had on only cutoffs/T-shirts and the locals strolling the beech were in down coats. It wasn't at all cold to us.....

17. Aug 24, 2019

### litespeed

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I fear your previous unrelated experience in more controlled conditions, ie, on land- will not help but likely end you.

Any energy expended to float is very minimal- assuming you actually can swim, you will use vastly more energy. No matter what, whether swimming or floating you must expend energy to keep your head above the water. Even treading water uses vastly more energy than just floating on your back.

You only have so much energy available- think in terms of flying engine out- you only have so much energy to use to keep in the air. As a pilot you would choose best glide speed, so why would you choose the dive at speed option instead?
The analogy is relevant.

You have a limited amount of energy, spend too much and your core temp drops, you tire quickly and drowning becomes a real consequence. Feeling cold is not really relevant- that is a minor inconvenience and your body doing what it must. Your body moves the blood from the extremities to maintain core temp and keep you alive.When you stop feeling cold, you are in big trouble and have hypothermia. Every bit of extra effort swimming uses massive amounts of that life saving energy and vastly reduces the time to hypothermia, which will quickly kill you in water.

Just like you can drown in a inch of water, you can get hypothermia in a warm body of water. It is purely your body losing the battle to stay warm inside from conduction in the water. The less energy expended the longer you have to live.

If you can't float on your back- you certainly will not be able to swim to safety.

Unless you are a very strong swimmer, uninjured and can see the land is very close, and know that no possible rescue is coming- Do Not Risk it.

If you do risk it- use backstroke, it is the least worst option and greatly reduces the chance of ingesting water and you can easily float between strokes.

Do not let Ego get you or your passenger killed.

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18. Aug 24, 2019

### BJC

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19. Aug 24, 2019

### BBerson

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Why does the NTSB leave out the only detail that matters: why did the pilot bounce and try to go around?
Was he too high or fast? Tried to force it to land??? All they need to do is ask the pilot.

20. Aug 24, 2019

### MrPollito

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