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BBerson

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Dec 16, 2007
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13,089
Location
Port Townsend WA
The "top" as in those few who can fly above the masses. I have owned about a dozen airplanes with a low mechanics income because I buy airplanes low and sell high. The point is it doesn't take a high income.
 

Turd Ferguson

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Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,038
Location
Upper midwest in a house
I don't have time to work on my airplane ATM, I'm working a 32-40hr week
Reality check: 1 week = 168 hrs.
Work is consuming 19-23% of the hours in a week, or less than 1/4 of the total hrs available.
Have to sleep, so lets say 1/4 of the hrs in a week are used for sleeping. Still haven't used 1/2 of the available hrs. Need time to cook, eat, shower, commute, run errands, etc. When that's all said and done there are still at least 40 hrs in every week that could be used to work on your 'airplane' project. That would be equal to a full time job. (It would take about 2 months of "fulltime" work to build the plane you have from scratch. Heck, at the EAA ultralight barn this summer, an old, rich white guy EAA member built a whole ultralight in 6 days). Many people find working on their airplane project to be a relaxing escape from all the other stuff we're expected to do. If I was bored with working on my plane I would seriously ask myself "Is this really what I want to be doing?"
 

BBerson

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Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,089
Location
Port Townsend WA
I don't think building from scratch or restoring an ultralight is that much fun. It's just work that needs to be done to get an end result. So I try to do about 3 hours a day, or every other day.
The ultralight kit at Oshkosh was prefabricated and only needed assembly, I think.
 

narfi

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Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
822
Location
Alaska
This is a topic I have thought a lot about, deep down it encompasses almost all of our lifestyle philosophy, priorities, and motivation.

I have been in the camp that is overly judgmental at times and at others been in the camp of being too forgiving or defensive of perceived "laziness".

I made lots of mistakes when I was younger, and would like to help the next generations to not make those mistakes if I can.

The problem is that 16yr old me was different than 25yr old me who was different than 30yr old me who was different than my current 40yr old self, who is different than my 60 and 80yr old self will be.

The 16yr old lived at home, had no rent/morgage, had no food or daily bills. A part time job bought a LOT of gas, burgers and booze.

The 20yr old was on his own with minimal rent and living expenses, even with minimum apprentice wages and watching the clock for 5pm to get out of there each day still made a little extra, but managed to squander it as well as rack up debt by going on a 'deserved' vacation at the end of each season.

The 25yr old was making a little more but now had a mortgage and a new wife to support, he really regretted how much he had wasted the previous 9 years, and struggled with debt and had to take second jobs.

The 30yr old was making more but still fighting the debt and had a newborn to care for on top of it all.

Now I am out of debt and have 15years of working dusk till dawn behind me but cant slow down yet, need to fix the house up after 15 years of neglect trying to get out of debt, need to think about the kids education, need to think about saving for retirement.

Saving vs paying off debt, concepts of time, personal time, sleep, hobbies, and personal 'needs', all those concepts changed in my mind the older I have gotten and the more responsibilities and people I am responsible for has grown.

I know people in their early 20s fresh out of school with 100k debt and working near minimum wage, I feel bad for them.
I know a 20yr old works like a dog and saves everything, has already bought his first plane, has options ahead of him without needing school. I envy him and his future.


Even knowing all of this, I still make excuses for myself. There was a 4-5 week period this summer where I didn't do any work on my boat, and now it wont be finished this year (too cold now). I was sick for a week, then wife traveled so I spent more time with my son, then I had gotten into a lazy evening schedule after work and just never made it out to the tent, even though I have five hours (from 7pm to 12) every single night to do whatever I want in.

How can I judge others when it is something I have struggled with my whole life, even now? I can't, but I can still have the desire to encourage the youth, the young adults, those starting families, those making these sorts of choices in life to make better choices than I have.

This isn't meant as a dig at Turds post, but a reinforcement of it. We can all do better at budgeting our time, money, relationships and future, but we can see our own mistakes in the younger generations and hope that they don't have to follow directly in our steps.

Choppergirl is already past the earlier stages and even though it can be frustrating sometimes, it is something that can be observed in her threads here.
If you went back and asked her 3yrs ago about the stage she is at now, she would probably say her future self had 'sold out to the man' by holding down a non glamorous job and considering purchasing an airworthy aircraft. She has done lots of projects with getting the working space setup, rebuilding a trailer, etc....
 

Turd Ferguson

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Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,038
Location
Upper midwest in a house
I wasn't offering a life lesson or parental guidance. Simply giving a reality check that a 32-40 hr a week job is not all consuming of our time.

Perhaps CG is just tired of working on airplane related projects for now. I get that. Working on the actual plane should be much more motivating.
 

Tiger Tim

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Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
3,131
Location
Thunder Bay
I don't think building from scratch or restoring an ultralight is that much fun. It's just work that needs to be done to get an end result.
No, but finishing a single piece can be immensely satisfying whether it was made from scratch or restored. Then you hit that tipping point where you’re out of stuff to make so you take what you have and start putting it together.

The first car I restored was an overwhelmingly huge project that was very hard to get anything done on until I ignored it and focused on one small part at a time. One night may just be the refurbishment of a single bolt but when I was done it was the prettiest bolt it could be, and that made me want to do another part the next day.
 

cheapracer

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Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
6,051
Location
Australian
Simply giving a reality check that a 32-40 hr a week job is not all consuming of our time.
I haven't worked for others much, maybe 5 years in total of my 40 years working, but I found those hours in those jobs merely shortened the time I could apply to what I was doing that day, like Mum telling you to clean my room or wash the dishes before you go out to play.

It didn't stop me from going out to play, it merely made for some late nights.

When this Member frst joined, i had empathy for her position, to the point I PM'd her and offered to pay for her flying lessons, never heard back, and now I see why. It's far easier to dwell in self pity and attain attention rather than getting off your azz and doing something.
 

Tiger Tim

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Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
3,131
Location
Thunder Bay
It's far easier to dwell in self pity and attain attention rather than getting off your azz and doing something.
As someone who has recognized and climbed out of that hole over the last couple of years all I can say is my observation of fantasy being easy and perfect, but hollow. It’s harder to get up and do something but not as hard as many would think.

Or, to quote Sean Connery from The Rock: “Losers always whine about their best...”
 

Aerowerx

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Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
5,531
Location
Marion, Ohio
As someone who has recognized and climbed out of that hole over the last couple of years all I can say is my observation of fantasy being easy and perfect, but hollow. It’s harder to get up and do something but not as hard as many would think.

Or, to quote Sean Connery from The Rock: “Losers always whine about their best...”
I certainly have plenty of experience with that. Myself, I have found that the best way to get out of that deep pit is to get up off your rear and go do something!!! Doesn't matter what it is. Fold laundry. Change bed sheets (you'll thank yourself later that night). Mow grass. Cut some gussets. Pick up tools.
 

robertl

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Joined
May 5, 2017
Messages
167
Location
Heath Springs, S.C. USA
Well, there are two sides to every coin so I'm not going to bash anyones dreams or fantasies, I've had plenty of my own. And it's true, in order to have change, you have to do something different, and you may not get it right the first time, but you still keep trying. Just as an example, it took me a year and a half, almost to the day to get my 3rd class back after letting it expire years ago. Had I not persevered through many Dr. appointments, phone calls to the FAA, and continued flight instruction, I would not have been able to fly solo today. But here I am, PIC on a beautiful cool morning flying around South Carolina. So glad I stuck it out. You can dream, but only you can make the change that gets you where you want to go.
Bob
 

Aerowerx

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Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
5,531
Location
Marion, Ohio
Contrary to what is (unfortunately) being taught in many schools, no one is just going to hand you anything, CG. The world is not a giant fast food drive thru. You can't just pick your future off a big menu board, drive to the window, pay your money, and then they hand you your future.

You get out of the world what you put into it. Yes, there is oppression and discrimination, unfortunately, but a lot less here than in many places. If there is a roadblock to your goals, approach it from another direction.
 

DRFlyer

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
12
Location
Detroit Area, Michigan
This is a topic I have thought a lot about, deep down it encompasses almost all of our lifestyle philosophy, priorities, and motivation.

I have been in the camp that is overly judgmental at times and at others been in the camp of being too forgiving or defensive of perceived "laziness".

I made lots of mistakes when I was younger, and would like to help the next generations to not make those mistakes if I can.

The problem is that 16yr old me was different than 25yr old me who was different than 30yr old me who was different than my current 40yr old self, who is different than my 60 and 80yr old self will be.

The 16yr old lived at home, had no rent/morgage, had no food or daily bills. A part time job bought a LOT of gas, burgers and booze.

The 20yr old was on his own with minimal rent and living expenses, even with minimum apprentice wages and watching the clock for 5pm to get out of there each day still made a little extra, but managed to squander it as well as rack up debt by going on a 'deserved' vacation at the end of each season.

The 25yr old was making a little more but now had a mortgage and a new wife to support, he really regretted how much he had wasted the previous 9 years, and struggled with debt and had to take second jobs.

The 30yr old was making more but still fighting the debt and had a newborn to care for on top of it all.

Now I am out of debt and have 15years of working dusk till dawn behind me but cant slow down yet, need to fix the house up after 15 years of neglect trying to get out of debt, need to think about the kids education, need to think about saving for retirement.

Saving vs paying off debt, concepts of time, personal time, sleep, hobbies, and personal 'needs', all those concepts changed in my mind the older I have gotten and the more responsibilities and people I am responsible for has grown.

I know people in their early 20s fresh out of school with 100k debt and working near minimum wage, I feel bad for them.
I know a 20yr old works like a dog and saves everything, has already bought his first plane, has options ahead of him without needing school. I envy him and his future.


Even knowing all of this, I still make excuses for myself. There was a 4-5 week period this summer where I didn't do any work on my boat, and now it wont be finished this year (too cold now). I was sick for a week, then wife traveled so I spent more time with my son, then I had gotten into a lazy evening schedule after work and just never made it out to the tent, even though I have five hours (from 7pm to 12) every single night to do whatever I want in.

How can I judge others when it is something I have struggled with my whole life, even now? I can't, but I can still have the desire to encourage the youth, the young adults, those starting families, those making these sorts of choices in life to make better choices than I have.

This isn't meant as a dig at Turds post, but a reinforcement of it. We can all do better at budgeting our time, money, relationships and future, but we can see our own mistakes in the younger generations and hope that they don't have to follow directly in our steps.

Choppergirl is already past the earlier stages and even though it can be frustrating sometimes, it is something that can be observed in her threads here.
If you went back and asked her 3yrs ago about the stage she is at now, she would probably say her future self had 'sold out to the man' by holding down a non glamorous job and considering purchasing an airworthy aircraft. She has done lots of projects with getting the working space setup, rebuilding a trailer, etc....
Narfi, this was a great post. I'm fairly new to this forum but I stumbled across this from the daily email bulletin. Just reading through this thread I feel like a lot of the comments come off as overly condescending, even if they may think they're helping to motivate CG.

We all have our own unique life experiences and situations, and nobody is perfect, so saying that "because I was able to work 26 hours a day running the paper route at 4 years old, I was able to save up my money and buy a business at 10. Now I have a whole fleet of aircraft" (obviously being extremely sarcastic), doesn't necessarily mean that other people are in the position to make those kinds of lifestyle choices. People could be struggling with debt (student, medical, childcare, or just general bad luck with over-extending your budget), or may struggle with depression or anxiety which makes seemingly easy tasks and decisions much more difficult for some.

Now, I'm not trying to accuse anyone here of being intentionally un-supportive. I know it can be frustrating to watch struggle with their builds, and you want to try and motivate them by telling them to get off their ass and do something since it seemed to work for you. Some people just don't respond well to this, and the advice just ends up being counter-productive.

Building an aircraft obviously requires a lot of self-motivation and good time management, which do not always come easily to some people. That said, it looks like CG has done a huge amount of work getting her shop and trailer ready, so I would say she has drive. Getting a shop set up is definitely an important step in building or restoring an aircraft, and it may be a less daunting task that can be used as a stepping stone to reach your goal.

Whatever the case CG, I wish you luck in your build and hope that you can stay motivated and enthusiastic about accomplishing your dreams. The only advice I can give is to try and not get too caught up with all the different designs and missions you want to do (I still struggle with this myself). I think we can get a bad case of the FOMOs thinking we're making the wrong choice of airframe to the point where it becomes paralyzing. The thing is, they should all get you in the air, and even if it's not perfect, it's still better than being stuck on the ground.
 
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