# A very affordable EFIS (Talos)

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#### bifft

##### Well-Known Member
I agree internal GPS works fine on avare, you will not get the traffic and weather overlay that stratux provides.
I use avare, and get the traffic overlay from Echo-UAT just fine. Don't know about the weather, if the weather is bad enough to worry about I stay on the ground.

#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member
View attachment 105027
I wonder if this Raspberry Pi Screen would work with the Talos System?
Well usually just takes a hdmi port on the tablet...

But you can run android on a pi - which may be a better option for something closer to a hard mount...

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
The Talos system exports data to an app, it doesn't actually drive the screen, so I think you'd need an Android or Apple tablet rather than a monitor. If the Pi can run Android, that might work, but an off-the-shelf tablet is probably an easier solution. I have seen nice brand new 10" Samsung tablets under $200, 10" Amazon Fire with no ads (that can also run Android apps) for$125. Bigger than that the tablets get more expensive so the Pi might be an option.

#### skydawg

##### Well-Known Member
We have been using a Talos unit in a C172 test aircraft for a couple of years and there’s a few things to reference before considering it. First off the unit is accurate with pitot static indications and the AHRS depiction is similar to the Boeing’s I fly for work, so pretty neat stuff. The issue we have it the internal magnetometer is incompatible with metal airframes. No big deal as the heading can be selected to reference GPS derived data but it’s only accurate when moving for a while in that vector and a period of time.... so you can taxi on to runway but have a displayed heading well off runway heading.....this also occurs inflight with tight turns until you level out for about a second. Again, no big deal but remember it’s giving you ground track data as well. they are working on a remote compass sensor to solve this issue.

the only other issue we see is that ADSB data such as traffic will not display unless the unit is connected to iPad by WIFI, eventhough it can be connected by wire for the EFIS data. Personally I like hardwire better than WIFI, but we have not had an issue with WiFi.

they tend to have a half off sale around Boxing Day (Talos is a Greek co) so its a really good deal. Their support is via email but it’s pretty easy to Install. The manual is very basic and could use some more info and maybe online expanded info. But, we have had several contacts with them and they seem to really want to improve and support the product and support customers.

they partnered up with a syn vision and chart software company called Helios glass cockpit and you get a free year subscription. They have a free demo app to try out as well. We are also trying Foreflight EFIS app as both are supposed to be compatible with the protocol.

#### 103

##### Well-Known Member
We have been using a Talos unit in a C172 test aircraft for a couple of years and there’s a few things to reference before considering it. First off the unit is accurate with pitot static indications and the AHRS depiction is similar to the Boeing’s I fly for work, so pretty neat stuff. The issue we have it the internal magnetometer is incompatible with metal airframes. No big deal as the heading can be selected to reference GPS derived data but it’s only accurate when moving for a while in that vector and a period of time.... so you can taxi on to runway but have a displayed heading well off runway heading.....this also occurs inflight with tight turns until you level out for about a second. Again, no big deal but remember it’s giving you ground track data as well. they are working on a remote compass sensor to solve this issue.

the only other issue we see is that ADSB data such as traffic will not display unless the unit is connected to iPad by WIFI, eventhough it can be connected by wire for the EFIS data. Personally I like hardwire better than WIFI, but we have not had an issue with WiFi.

they tend to have a half off sale around Boxing Day (Talos is a Greek co) so its a really good deal. Their support is via email but it’s pretty easy to Install. The manual is very basic and could use some more info and maybe online expanded info. But, we have had several contacts with them and they seem to really want to improve and support the product and support customers.

they partnered up with a syn vision and chart software company called Helios glass cockpit and you get a free year subscription. They have a free demo app to try out as well. We are also trying Foreflight EFIS app as both are supposed to be compatible with the protocol.
Last fall I mocked up the app combined with AVARE split screen to evaluate if the map was still useful. Tonight I fabricated a bracket to hang the Gyro/Sensor box under my glove box. I am looking forward to using this this summer. Originally I had the unit on top of the glove box it was very tight and I needed to add a remote switch to arm the internal battery. The new location I can reach the switch under the glove box. I am hoping the Magnetometer will be better than my vertical card compass although after moving the secondary ignition coils I think I can dial it in.

Matt

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#### skydawg

##### Well-Known Member
Matt
nice looking install. Talos is working on a magentmeter and sending us a sample to test. It’s really required for the metal Cessna it’s installed in. We are actually using the iPad as our primary AHRS for flight testing a new piston engine, and Talos will be updating their app to allow logging data which will help us a bit.

again nice install.....our test bed is a beat up 1969 C172 and has wires, sensors and odd gauges running thru it..... we simply fabricated some aluminum mounts and rubber coated them to hold the iPad in place. It allows us for quick removal when needed to reach behind panel for accessing some of the test equipment. We did install a fan behind the iPad which really lowered its temperature. the install is a bit ugly but practical for the mission right now. Got some photos on the website www.corsairpower.com.

#### 103

##### Well-Known Member
Matt
nice looking install. Talos is working on a magentmeter and sending us a sample to test. It’s really required for the metal Cessna it’s installed in. We are actually using the iPad as our primary AHRS for flight testing a new piston engine, and Talos will be updating their app to allow logging data which will help us a bit.

again nice install.....our test bed is a beat up 1969 C172 and has wires, sensors and odd gauges running thru it..... we simply fabricated some aluminum mounts and rubber coated them to hold the iPad in place. It allows us for quick removal when needed to reach behind panel for accessing some of the test equipment. We did install a fan behind the iPad which really lowered its temperature. the install is a bit ugly but practical for the mission right now. Got some photos on the website www.corsairpower.com.

We shall see later this week/Friday/Sat. Plans to install this past Friday/Saturday were thwarted by a second M0derna shot that knocked me over 42 hours of sleep better now but not flight worthy. On the second install it will be under an aluminum glove box in and aluminum bracket which may hamper the magnetometer based on your experience. A Magnetic DG function would be a nice feature to keep I hope the remote is backwards compatible. I guess I could relocate the box into a wooden wing. Prime mission is the for the AH as I am daytime VFR only I would like something to help me escape an unintentional cloud entry.

I relocated my secondary coils just prior to installing the Talos fixed the engines influence on my Vertical Card Compass but you can see the Tallos compass jumping around and the VC compass has lost it's 10-15 degree divergence with full power. https://youtu.be/PqGnz6xECNQ Routing ADSB antennae under the floorboards and the OAT on install 1 took some time relocating it should be less. I did find wifi radio interference I could resolve with a choke wrapped twice on the ground wire. Originally unit and radio were inches apart I will be 4-5x that distance with the new install

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#### Bill-Higdon

##### Well-Known Member
We shall see later this week/Friday/Sat. Plans to install this past Friday/Saturday were thwarted by a second M0derna shot that knocked me over 42 hours of sleep better now but not flight worthy. On the second install it will be under an aluminum glove box in and aluminum bracket which may hamper the magnetometer based on your experience. A Magnetic DG function would be a nice feature to keep I hope the remote is backwards compatible. I guess I could relocate the box into a wooden wing. Prime mission is the for the AH as I am daytime VFR only I would like something to help me escape an unintentional cloud entry.

I relocated my secondary coils just prior to installing the Talos fixed the engines influence on my Vertical Card Compass but you can see the Tallos compass jumping around and the VC compass has lost it's 10-15 degree divergence with full power. https://youtu.be/PqGnz6xECNQ Routing ADSB antennae under the floorboards and the OAT on install 1 took some time relocating it should be less. I did find wifi radio interference I could resolve with a choke wrapped twice on the ground wire. Originally unit and radio were inches apart I will be 4-5x that distance with the new install
My first Moderna shot was a very sore arm for a couple of days 2nd was what some people call the "Moderna Flu" took about 3 days to get over & back to felling like I could work.

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
...Im typing this on an iPad (and currently, I don’t have an aircraft to fly).
Same here, but I don't really like the iPad at all. The only reason I own this one is because of the number of aviation apps available. I've never understood why some people writing aviation apps only do so for an operating system that only comprises 13% of the mobile market (iOS) instead of the one that has 87% of the market (Android). This thing is a pain in the butt. It won't even let me see my files, and that's just the beginning. Anyway, I bought it to run stuff in my plane, like Foreflight, but I'd be ecstatic if they brought something like that to Android. This thing would go in the trash. Sorry. Just venting.

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#### PredragVasic

##### Active Member
I've never understood why some people writing aviation apps only do so for an operating system that only comprises 13% of the mobile market (iOS) instead of the one that hs 87% of the market (Android).
The thing is, iPad commands over one third of the tablet market in the USA. Developers generally much prefer developing for Apple's devices for two main reasons:

1. Apple users are much more likely to spend on apps than Android users (who generally prefer free apps), and even if you offer free app, Apple version brings more add revenue than the Android version (the general average Apple user is more affluent, with more disposable cash, which is reflected in ad revenue). The one third market share brings three quarters of all the add and app revenue;

2. It is much easier to develop for Apple. The SDK is much more polished, but more importantly, when you develop for Apple, you can easily develop for 95% of all active Apple devices; almost all of them run the latest version of iOS, and there are only few different screen sizes, resolutions, feature sets. Android is significantly fragmented; between different versions of Android (going back seven years), myriad of pixel resolutions and screen sizes, and most importantly, hundreds of hardware configurations with or without many sensors, you can't possibly test for all of them, and writing for just the most recent few versions of OS, and most complete hardware configurations (with gyroscopic sensor, barometric pressure sensor, motion sensor, etc) significantly reduces the addressable market share.

You may have the most recent Samsung device with all the required sensors and most recent OS, but majority of other Android owners don't, which strongly discourages developers from porting their apps to Android. It just makes much more financial sense to develop for Apple.

#### PredragVasic

##### Active Member
No i-verse for me, for at least the past 10 years. Better screens and better all-around performance for *much* less money with android devices. Unfortunately, I can't wean my wife off hers...
Much less money, that's true. There are no new, current model Apple devices for less than about $400. Most of the Android devices are below that mark. To match that price, you'd have to get older devices (some are still sold new from Apple, but for cheaper than that, you'd need used, out of warranty ones). As for performance, you get exactly what you pay for. Apple devices are blazingly fast and generally perform inline with their price. For aviation apps, you certainly don't need that blazing fast processor (or graphics); the difference probably shows mainly in complicated visual apps (fast games, complex video editing, etc). Unfortunately, developers aren't really crazy about Android, as it is a pain to develop for it (fragmentation, much lower ad and app revenue, etc). In the end, if you need aviation apps, you may need to bite the bullet and get an Apple device. In the end, it isn't like these devices cost$10k. And among airplane builders, nobody really builds an airplane because they can't afford to buy one (average homebuilt ends up costing north of $70k, when all is said and done). The difference between a$100 android device and a $400 iPad, within the context of$70k airplane, isn't really that meaningful.

103

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
...1. Apple users are much more likely to spend on apps than Android users (who generally prefer free apps), and even if you offer free app, Apple version brings more add revenue than the Android version...

...2. It is much easier to develop for Apple. The SDK is much more polished, but more importantly, when you develop for Apple, you can easily develop for 95% of all active Apple devices...
That explains a lot. Thanks.

...The difference between a $100 android device and a$400 iPad, within the context of $70k airplane, isn't really that meaningful. True, but the aversion in my case wasn't due to price. I was willing to pay to get the aviation functionality, a concept we're all familiar with. The thing is just a severe pain to use, and I'm not alone in feeling that way. My last Samsung device cost me$400 as well, so they aren't as cheap as they used to be. But you're right. The iPad was much more, partly because I get all the bells and whistles, which I don't necessarily need. One of the downfalls of being a former IT guy is you want all the fancy options, but those cost.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
True, but the aversion in my case wasn't due to price. I was willing to pay to get the aviation functionality, a concept we're all familiar with. The thing is just a severe pain to use, and I'm not alone in feeling that way. ... The iPad was much more, partly because I get all the bells and whistles, which I don't necessarily need.
All of that equally, but at a much greater cost, applies to Garmin. Sigh.

BJC

#### PredragVasic

##### Active Member
The thing is just a severe pain to use, and I'm not alone in feeling that way.
I could never understand where this pain is coming from. I used to work in IT (web development) for about a decade or two (before moving elsewhere), and to me, iPad (and, in general, Apple devices) are the most frictionless computing appliances out there. There is nothing I need to deal with directly, everything has been abstracted to the point that it completely disappears. Most of their own native apps don't even have the concept of 'saving' a file -- after each interaction with your document, the change is automatically saved. Even the file system is abstract to the level that it doesn't even exist for the user -- your work goes exactly where you expect it to be, there's no more digging through directories, subdirectories, arcane file names...

I know there are many old-school IT guys who are missing the old hierarchical file system, but after living with it for almost four decades, I couldn't wait to see it gone from my device's user interface.

In any case, it is what it is, and if it doesn't work for you, it is unfortunate (from the perspective of an aircraft home builder), since it looks like it will be the primary platform for independent development for a lot of really neat aviation tools.

#### rv7charlie

##### Well-Known Member
Foreflight is the only app I can think of that is in really common use and only works in the iVerse, and since I never fly 'in the system' (I'm VFR only) it does nothing that I can't get for free or for a small donation from apps like Avare. My neighbor does a fair amount of corporate flying, and even he has dropped Foreflight to save the recurring charges.

I've tried to use my stepdaughters Mac. I found it...unusable. My wife & I both had early generation iphones. Contrary to popular belief, they were nightmares to update, and closed architecture meant that once useful stuff started being written for them they had to be 'jailbroken' to get functionality that should have been easy to access. Wife has had several ipads; all but the most recent were nightmares to update. Among other issues, you never knew which USB port the ipad would talk to. Updates would just fail for no obvious reason. Fairly frequently, update attempts would trigger total lockups, requiring factory resets.

Having lived with computers since CPM, I find even android frustrating from time to time (much more usable once I discovered file manager apps). What you see as 'frictionless', I see as opaque to the point of unusable. I want something that allows me to get under the hood; not something that whenever it glitches, it means a trip to the Imbecile Store, where they tell me that at 9 months of age, it's too old to work with the new operating system and I need to spend another \$879 to get the newer model so email will function again. If the i stuff 'just works', why is the Imbecile Store help window always backed up?

The iVerse is perfect for 'artists' (like my wife), who understand that the light is supposed to come on when you flip the switch, and call an electrician when it doesn't. Except that I'm the electrician, and every time that ipad glitches, *I* have to deal with it.

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
I could never understand where this pain is coming from. I used to work in IT...

...it looks like it will be the primary platform for independent development for a lot of really neat aviation tools.
They are indeed frictionless in some ways, as I noted before. That's what tight control gives you. The old school comment brings up an interesting point. Long ago it was obvious that people liked most what they 'grew up' with. If you started computing with a Mac, you always liked them. The same for PCs. That hasn't really changed. Mobile devices experience that same brand comfort from familiarity, except for Windows mobile devices. Don't even get me started on those.

The hierarchal file system may seem archaic to some, but it's still necessary to get things done, especially in IT. I haven't been out of IT very long, so I'm not exactly speaking of ancient history here (I was mostly server, network and app administration). And I'm not talking IT level stuff here anyway. There's nothing old fashioned about wanting to see the files I've downloaded. That's just one example of the basic functionality you'd expect from any system, but I don't get on my iPad Pro. There are lots more, like being able to add a new word to the dictionary, having the cursor actually go where I'm pointing instead of somewhere else, or sharing files between devices. Really, really basic stuff. We could go for hours, but the points would be the same.

As you and I have both noted, the tight control in iOS does have distinct advantages, and those advantages have different appeal to different people. Nothing new there. I just prefer to have more control over the systems I buy. I know I may have to sacrifice some of that control and use other devices in order to use some of the aviation apps I prefer. And thanks to you, I have a better insight now as to why that really is (thanks again). But I'd still like to be able to use the attributes even those tightly controlled systems claim to have, and I'm still going to be frustrated when I can't, or when I have to jump through major hoops to do so. It's what I 'grew up' with. Maybe if I hadn't grown up being able to do those things, I wouldn't know what I was missing. Maybe it wouldn't bother me much, or maybe I wouldn't care at all. I don't know. But it seems to me having tight control shouldn't require you to make basic tasks difficult or impossible to perform. They shouldn't be mutually exclusive. People have been complaining about a lot of this stuff for a loooooong time. I see it when I do a search to find out why I can't do yet something else on my iPad. There's tons of motivation to develop apps in iOS, as you noted, but there doesn't seem to be any inclination to make the operating system do basic tasks easily.

You have good reasons for preferring iOS, and lots of other folks do too. What bugs me may be just what seems like normal ops to someone who grew up with iOS. But I'm not that person. The cons of iOS outweigh the pros on my personal balance sheet, so I have my own good reasons to prefer something else. Not everyone is going to like the same things. Both systems work well, but in different ways and for different reasons. It's just boils down to a matter of personal preference.

Foreflight is the only app I can think of that is in really common use and only works in the iVerse...

...The iVerse is perfect for 'artists' (like my wife), who understand that the light is supposed to come on when you flip the switch, and call an electrician when it doesn't. Except that I'm the electrician, and every time that ipad glitches, *I* have to deal with it.
Yeah, that.

My wife wanted a tablet after watching me use my iPad for a couple of years, but she's sort of my opposite when it comes to technology. She's been using Windows PCs for many years, but I regularly have to remind her how to find things or perform somewhat minor tasks. As such, I knew getting her a tablet with a new OS would be a nightmare scenario, so I got her a Samsung for Christmas that works pretty much the same as her phone (which I also still have to help her with sometimes). She likes it, and having watched her use it for a while, I'm thinking of putting Avare on it to see how that goes. Maybe I won't need an iOS device to run aviation apps with after all. That would make life SOOOO much easier for me, and it would simplify my panel configuration as well (fingers crossed).

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