“Go around wasn’t an option”

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by davidb, Nov 6, 2018.

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  1. Nov 6, 2018 #21

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

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    New Info: O-320; solo; light - She had plenty of options.

    The AIM is very specific about what is "recommended". Uncontrolled field - Left pattern with downwind or base entries are recommended unless right pattern is specified - Straight in is allowed but defers to pattern aircraft. While the AIM is not strictly regulatory, the FAA has taken enforcement action citing "careless and reckless" for folks deviating from these "recommended" procedures with other traffic present.

    A standard C150 at flaps 40 will hold altitude (around Vy), so she likely had airborne options she did not execute. That means she chose to operate closer to you than regs allow without the prior arrangement - she can be busted for that too.

    In the unlikely case of flap drive failure with flaps 40, she was in an emergency situation, and then she would be well served to have S-turned to increase spacing to handle the now simultaneous emergencies of not being able to go around, not communicating, and being close to another airplane.

    Her judgement is suspect.

    Her flying skills are short a few pieces.

    "Forgive your enemy, but remember the bastard's name"

    Billski
     
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  2. Nov 6, 2018 #22

    12notes

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    Actually, it is required, not recommended:

    14CFR91.126 (b) (1):

    " Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right"

    Not sure exactly when the specific language was in there, but 91.126 was added in 1991, and amended in 1994 and 2004.

    Revision history of 91.126:
    "Doc. No. 24458, 56 FR 65658, Dec. 17, 1991, as amended by Amdt. 91-239, 59 FR 11693, Mar. 11, 1994; Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004"

    From:

    https://gov.ecfr.io/cgi-bin/text-id...ab33fea2&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1126&rgn=div8
     
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  3. Nov 6, 2018 #23

    PiperCruisin

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    I looked over a Bearhawk once. The builder commented and demonstrated that at full deflection the flaps relaxed up 5-10 degrees. Still, big, effective barn doors. It always surprises me how much you have to pitch down with full flaps in the Cessnas when you have full flaps.
     
  4. Nov 6, 2018 #24

    Pops

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    With full flaps on a Bearhawk you need the nose way down to keep the same airspeed. I ask Bob Barrows why the 50 degrees with such large flaps. He said he wanted max performance in getting over tall trees and landing in a short strip. I think he got it.
     
  5. Nov 6, 2018 #25

    Aerowerx

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    Speaking of flaps as tools...

    My CFI showed me a trick. If you are doing a power out landing, and don't think you are going to clear the fence, drop in a click or two of extra flaps. The ballooning could be just what you need.
     
  6. Nov 6, 2018 #26

    Pops

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    You have far more control when you have manual flaps. As fast or as slow as needed.
     
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  7. Nov 6, 2018 #27

    davidb

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    Haha. Dug out my books from 1977. FAR 91.89 (a) (1) in effect at the time has the same verbiage of shall make all turns to the left unless...

    There is even cases of the FAA violation penalties for making the wrong right turn:

    https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3523.pdf
     
  8. Nov 6, 2018 #28

    Jerry Lytle

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    And you better be right on the money because you will have almost zero reserve for flare.
     
  9. Nov 6, 2018 #29

    pictsidhe

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    I would be very irritated if that lady had done that to me. Probably upset enough to report the incident to thr FAA.
     
  10. Nov 7, 2018 #30

    Vigilant1

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    That would be a very unique situation. Assuming one is already trying to optimize the glide distance in order to reach the field and is coming in at Vg (best angle of glide speed), there's normally a comfortable margin of kinetic energy to allow some to be exchanged for altitude if staring at a fence. So, rather than reconfigure the flaps at the last minute to get over the fence, it would be a lot easier and more controllable just to raise the nose. For example, the Vg for a C-172 is 65 knots, which is 20 knots above no-flap stall speed (and about 30 knots above Vs1) Yes, you'll bleed off airspeed if you just raise the nose, but that's gonna happen if you dial in a lot of flaps, too.

    I'd >guess< that selecting 10-15 degrees of flaps might be worth doing (significant increase in Cl for the amount of added drag, and concomitant reduction in "stall speed"), but I doubt it would be smart to go from 15 degrees to 30.
    If coming in anywhere close to the critical AoA ("stall speed") and we're talking about a typical chain-link fence, it might be better to hit it than risk dropping the plane in from 20-30 feet AGL.
     
  11. Nov 7, 2018 #31

    Dan Thomas

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    We never milked the flaps up to 20° in the 150 or 172. A light Cessna's flaps make mostly drag at 30 or 40°, easily seen if you look at the stall speed charts. There's only about one MPH difference in stall between 20 and 40°. If you're going around you want to get rid of that drag quickly, so full power, carb heat off, go directly to 20° flaps and raise the nose to stop the descent as you do it. A lot of folks experience that sinking feeling when raising the flaps because they didn't re-establish the pitch angle back to the usual for 20° flaps.

    C150 flaps.png
     
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  12. Nov 7, 2018 #32

    davidb

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    I’m not a fan of punishment. We all learn better in a non threatening environment and even the FAA recognizes that. This aviation gig requires we keep the learning one step ahead of disaster.

    I probably sensationalized the event a bit. She probably acted and reacted as best she could with the training and experience she had...and now she knows about the importance of left turns and checking NOTAMS. I just wish I had more time with her to explore her understanding of go arounds.

    And, I learned a lot by sharing this and am thankful for all the thoughtful replies.
     
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  13. Nov 7, 2018 #33

    wsimpso1

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    I do not know what you are thinking I mean when I say "milk the flaps". Maybe I should explain myself. In Cessna singles, the flap motor only moves the flaps around 3 degrees a second - going from 40 to 20 takes six to seven seconds. In 150's and early 172's, you have to hold the switch and count if you only want 10 or 20 degrees change. The 152 does not even have 40 degrees and you can put the switch at the step you want right away, but it still takes 3 seconds to move each 10 degrees... That is what I mean by milking the flaps - think "Less Flaps", move the switch, and then wait while it slowly happens.

    Personally, I like my Archer's Johnson Bar. Grab the handle, push the button, and move it down one or two notches as fast as you can make the accompanying pitch adjustments. Go from high drag to low drag in a second...

    Billski
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  14. Nov 7, 2018 #34

    pictsidhe

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    She needs more wducation, from someone. I believe thw FAA is big on fixing pilot knowledge shortages?

    There's a big sign here at work:

    "An incident not reported is the next accident"
     
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  15. Nov 7, 2018 #35

    davidb

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    I hear ya. I’m not sure she heard me... but she probably did some thinking. No real harm was done and if I truly believed there was a strong potential for future harm, I would have pushed a little harder. She made a long trip to rejoin with old friends while enjoying aviation along the way.

    I’ll consider this incident “reported” to the people that matter...her and my friends on this forum.
     
  16. Nov 7, 2018 #36

    davidb

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    BTW, interesting discussions about flaps and performance going on here. Seems there should be some certification requirements concerning the issues, no? POH warnings and cautions? Proper training?

    Barring some dire malfunction, don’t we always operate with options?
     
  17. Nov 7, 2018 #37

    Topaz

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    Heh. Going around is NEVER an option for me. ;)

    More seriously, it's one of the benefits of glider training. You learn to always leave yourself margin on the pattern and approach, always have an alternate landing spot picked out if something wanders out onto the runway, and to PAY ATTENTION: To the wind, to the runway and everything moving around it, to what your glider is doing, to what YOU'RE doing, and managing the performance of your aircraft from the moment you cross the Initial Point to the point where the wingtip finally drops to the ground and you open the canopy.

    I'm not saying "going around" is lazy or reflective of bad pilot technique. Going around is a great option to have, when you have it. But it's no excuse for a lazy approach where you're not really paying attention to everything that's going on. I fear that far too many pilots use it that way. YMMV.
     
  18. Nov 7, 2018 #38

    davidb

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    A lazy approach and not paying attention certainly leads to bad landings. But, far too few pilots choose go arounds over bad landings. Most will continue a bad approach to a bad landing. Most landing incidents/accidents could have been avoided by a timely go around.
     
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  19. Nov 8, 2018 #39

    Topaz

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    Absolutely. But how did they get into a bad approach in the first place? There's a lot too much of that, too.
     
  20. Nov 8, 2018 #40

    BBerson

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