“Go around wasn’t an option”

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by davidb, Nov 6, 2018.

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  1. Nov 6, 2018 #1

    davidb

    davidb

    davidb

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    Recently had a C152 pilot claim she couldn’t go around because she was at flaps 40 and too low. Conditions were sea level, no terrain, no obstacles. Just wondering why someone would think such a thing?

    The other day as I was turning off the runway, I was curious as to why I had a new found formation mate turning off the runway with me. I tracked her down to have a chat. Apparently a few things were at play. She was on the wrong CTAF frequency, flew a right hand pattern rather than the published left hand pattern, didn’t have her transponder on, and had flown ten hours that day. My bad for not seeing her on the opposing base leg. Her base leg must have been wider than mine as she said she first saw me rolling out on final as she was also in the roll out to final. She said she was close behind me at that point and “irritated” that I had cut her off. I asked her why she didn’t go around at that point and she claimed it wasn’t an option because she was already at 40 flaps. Really?

    Fortunately, I had landed long and fast for a shorter taxi. She claimed to brake hard to avoid hitting me. Really? Had I been practicing a short field landing I guess she would have just ran into me. I have no reason to think she would have swerved into the grass rather than hit me.

    Anyway, other than landing into a box canyon or engine out, is a go around “not an option”?
     
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  2. Nov 6, 2018 #2

    Aerowerx

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    IMOH a go around would have been possible.

    I remember taking lessons in a c152 and c172. You give it gas, build up speed, and retract the flaps a little at a time as it builds speed. You also have to give it a lot of push on the yoke, or put in nose-down trim, as it is going to want to balloon with all that flaps.

    We rarely used 40 degrees. Why was she unless she was doing a short approach on a short field over an obstacle?

    This also points out a problem with high wings like the c152/172. When you turn you can't see if there is anything out there.
     
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  3. Nov 6, 2018 #3

    BJC

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    C152 flaps only lower to 30 degrees. Older C150s would extend to 40 degrees. A 150 with 40 degrees of flaps has so much drag that it is difficult to climb, even at full power. (Its been 50 years since I last flew a 150. It might not climb at all with 40 degrees of flaps.) A common admonition from CFIs was “don’t try to go around with 40 degrees of flaps.” Which, of course, meant to apply full power and then gently raise the flaps for a go around. I guess that your intruder didn’t understand the last part.

    I watched a similar near-collision from the ground a few years ago. The ATP B747 pilot entered the pattern at 200 feet on a short right base, and just missed a Hatz flying a standard pattern. A brief conversation with the ATP uncovered the problem when he asked, “What is a standard pattern?” He is a good pilot, but had zero GA experience, and has done a great job since.


    BJC
     
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  4. Nov 6, 2018 #4

    wsimpso1

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    First problem was fatigue, second problem was flying a right pattern when other folks were about, third problem was was ignorance of go-around procedure for Cessna's that have flaps 40.

    Cessna took flaps 40 out of the birds because people died trying to do go-arounds at flaps 40. Go-around procedure is simple - Throttle, mixture, carb heat all full forward; cancel the descent with pitch and make sure it stays nose level; Milk the flaps up to 30 then 20 degrees, and let it accelerate to Vy and it will climb just fine. You have to get full power, avoid pitch excursions, and reduce flaps.

    She has some learning to do about left patterns and go-around procedure.

    Billski
     
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  5. Nov 6, 2018 #5

    pwood66889

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    Owned a buck-and-a-half for many years and acquired PPASEL there in. Mr. Billski has the drill = power and milk flaps. Watch turns whilst doing.
    Percy in NW FL
     
  6. Nov 6, 2018 #6

    Pops

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    On my instrument check ride I had to do a ILS down to decision height with 40% flaps in a C-172 then do the missed approach procedure with 40% of flaps and then shoot another approach all with 40 degs of flaps. Told me he wanted for me to know what it would be like with a load of ice. At least I could get 100% power with a smooth running engine.

    I really don't like the C-172 with only 30 degs of flaps. Just took a good tool away. BTW-- The 4 seat Bearhawk has 50 degs of flaps. Lots of tools in that bag.
     
  7. Nov 6, 2018 #7

    davidb

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    Just looked up the N number. It was actually a C-150G with an O-320. She was solo and presumably something less than full tanks since she was on a cross country. We were several hundred feet agl when she spotted me close in front. Seems like she could have figured a way to maneuver and discontinue the approach at that point.

    I think her judgment might have been impaired by a bit of “road rage” since she admitted to wanting to yell at me for cutting in front of her until she later found out she was on the wrong freq. No idea why she was doing right traffic to that runway but she probably encroached the class D airspace on that side.
     
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  8. Nov 6, 2018 #8

    FritzW

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    Sounds like a little airborne 'road rage'.

    To me, what's scarier than her lack of simple piloting skill is her lack of basic pilot judgment.

    She had plenty of time when she was still on base to reconfigure the airplane and fly out of the situation. ...it doesn't matter who was wrong, she had a perfect chance to fix the problem before it started.

    EDIT: I didn't copy your post LOL. We just had the same thought at the same time.
     
  9. Nov 6, 2018 #9

    davidb

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    I don’t think she saw me until we were both on final. Maybe she was already on a longer final when I was turning final in front of her but I don’t think so since I had another pilot with me and we both are vigilant for straight in traffic while on base.

    That she was within a wing span of me as I was turning off the runway makes me think she was “teaching me a lesson”.
     
  10. Nov 6, 2018 #10

    BBerson

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    10 hours that day? Was this a student pilot?
     
  11. Nov 6, 2018 #11

    davidb

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    This was at KVCB rwy 02. I landed long and fast (relalatively) to expedite to the 2nd turn-off 2000 ft. down. I could easily make the first turn-off and so could she if she in fact was doing a flaps 40 landing. That’s why I think she might have been “making a point”. She was either dangerously close throughout the approach and landing or tried hard to catch up and turn off in wingtip formation with me. Either way, not good.
     
  12. Nov 6, 2018 #12

    davidb

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    Ten hours that day. Started in Wyoming. PPL since 2005.
     
  13. Nov 6, 2018 #13

    Daleandee

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    Yeah I guess it's called "air rage" for pilots and it sounds like she had plenty. Your comment about her judgement being worse than her skill is dead on correct.

    Brings to mind a famous quote that is very true:

    A good pilot is always learning and I hope she learned a lesson from this. But I can't too to self righteous or judgmental as I've had a few boneheaded moments over the years ... but I do try to learn from those times and never repeat a mistake.

    Dale
    N319WF
     
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  14. Nov 6, 2018 #14

    BBerson

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    With a O-320 it should climb nicely with full flaps.
    Sounds like an excuse for a series of screw ups. Lots of pilots will get the wrong frequency. I did once using an out-dated Supplement. Did the frequency change recently?
    Using that non-standard right base doesn't make sense if she had a proper Supplement and checked it. Otherwise use a standard base if no Supplement.
    Or maybe the right base was most direct for her and she thought everyone was hearing her call.
     
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  15. Nov 6, 2018 #15

    davidb

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    Well, I’m learning too. I guess flying a right hand pattern when it’s not specified isn’t really prohibited so I need to be more vigilant with my scan for folks doing things opposite the norm.

    Really the only thing that bothers me about this is “see and (not) avoid”.
     
  16. Nov 6, 2018 #16

    davidb

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    Yes, the freq changed a few months ago and it is not on the current sectional yet. Pretty common for visitors on the old freq. Not a big deal. We have a few NORDO planes here too.

    No idea why the right base. Rwy 20 is right traffic so maybe she saw that and got confused. Unless she took the southern route from WY to CA, the right base would be out of the way and put her up against KSUU airspace.
     
  17. Nov 6, 2018 #17

    bmcj

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    A couple of points...

    I’ve done practice go-arounds in 100hp 150’s with 40 degrees of flaps. As others have already stated, you normally arrest the descent and stabilize with as much climb as you can get. You then start to milk up the flaps slowly, adjusting your pitch as you go. However, flying light with a good running engine and reasonable DA, you CAN sustain a climb with flaps 40, but you really have to push the nose down low.

    My other thought is that if you were making a long fast approach, you would have been on a shallow glide slope. With full flaps, she would have been on a very high, steep glide slope (unless she was dragging it in with lots of power). Basically, she might have been too high to be seen by you, but you would have been clearly within her line of sight.
     
  18. Nov 6, 2018 #18

    BBerson

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    Rwy 02 and Rwy 20 is very confusing.
    I know two old instructors that insist there is no Rwy 02. There is only Rwy 2.
     
  19. Nov 6, 2018 #19

    BJC

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  20. Nov 6, 2018 #20

    davidb

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