Your opinion on the Tractor Style Gyrocopter?

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vtul

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There seems to be no reason for the lack of support.

There may just be a subconscious problem that it falls way outside of the "Golden Ratio" maybe, that makes them look less than appealing. The popular little gyro pushers are about right for the ratio btw.
Not for me, I much prefer the looks of older style tractors like the Detroit News and Beechnut examples to the modern pushers. But then I'm an artist who has ignored art theorists for quite some time.

If you really want to learn about what's up with electric propulsion re. modern light autogyro design, a great place for info on innovative experiential information is in the modeling community, especially here:
https://www.rcgroups.com/auto-gyros-224

Twin rotors are considered easier to work with in models than the more complex single rotor. I'm not sure gyro models show the same ground looping tendencies that conventional gear fixed wing models do. But a lot of interesting questions can be answered there, and many other interesting things learned. There's a lot more open development and innovation at small scale than large. Yes, yes, I know, models aren't real airplanes, effects don't necessarily scale, Reynold's numbers are different, etc, etc, etc.

nevertheless.....

Reminds me of a theater acting crowd story passed around -- Maria Callas I believe, performing at the London Palladium, the announcer introducing the great opera singer was interrupted by a drunken heckler in the audience, who shouted out, "Maria Callas is a @#&%!"

The annnouncer, unflapped continued, "Nevertheless........Maria Callas, ladies and gentlemen!".
 

vtul

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I'm not an expert but I think you are completely eliminating the downwash factor that obviously has to spread outwards and past the rudder. I notice the successful ones have a very long dorsal/rudder probably to take advantage of the downwash.

View attachment 61727
Well, to get enough Vstab area/rudder authority without the rotor hitting it when flexing the fin has to be low slung, and therefore long in profile.

One of the first homebuilt accidents I was aware of at ten years old was a short notice in a New Orleans paper about someone who had died in a Bensen gyrocopter when the rotor contacted the rudder. I don't recall reading the reason why this occurred.
 

cluttonfred

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One of the first homebuilt accidents I was aware of at ten years old was a short notice in a New Orleans paper about someone who had died in a Bensen gyrocopter when the rotor contacted the rudder. I don't recall reading the reason why this occurred.
Again, probably over-simplified but I believe pilot-induced oscillation (with no horizontal tail for damping) caused a lot of that kind of accident.
 

cheapracer

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My probably oversimplified understanding is that early autogyros used rotors fixed in both blade pitch and hub angle and therefore used conventional aircraft controls including the ailerons on those stub wings. The wings weren't there to offload the rotor so much as to provide aerodynamic control, which became less effective at low speed and even worse with an engine out and no prop blast.


Actually, I think ......
Exactly what I want, a normal plane other than a rotor speed up system, but once done people just fly a STOL plane without other thought, not a gyroplane.

... and don't call me Ashley.

The flying in the last half of this video is just great, you can see the ailerons going at the low speeds towards the end ...

[video=youtube;mQieKnglzj4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQieKnglzj4[/video]




but simplified with a teetering, two-bladed rotor. It not hard to imagine a mashup of a modern pusher autogyro with something like a tube-and-dacron Skyranger
I have a perfectly usable design coming along right now that has a whopping strong roll bar to base a rotor from.

I am so doing this the moment I get the basic plane out of the way first. My second model was always going to be a STOL anyway, it will save me scratch building that, and best of all for my position, this layout is incredibly suitable to the developing Chinese recreational flying market that lacks airfields.

I repeat again that the setup could carry the extra weight of being all electric, with extended range recharging from the rotor itself, driving the same electric motor that speeds up the rotor initially.



Again, probably over-simplified but I believe pilot-induced oscillation (with no horizontal tail for damping) caused a lot of that kind of accident.

I have no interest whatsoever in those little gyrocopters.
 
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cheapracer

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Might look something like this, with 5.2 meter span for both the rotor and the wings, I have no idea where the crossover span point would be though.

If it was under 6 meters then a twin blade with 2.5 meter removable wings would be a delight to trailer and store at home.

5.2 meter gyro.jpg
 

cluttonfred

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I like the look but I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the wings. Lose the wings, make the rotor bigger and tilting in two axes, make the horizontal stab fixed and probably add endplate rudders for low-speed directional stability and I think you'll be closer to the mark.
 

Jerry Lytle

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While on the topic of gyro planes, I have followed Rotary Wing Forum for years. All I get now is "Invalid URL". Anyone here know what happened to them.
Thanks
 

cheapracer

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Lose the wings, make the rotor bigger and tilting in two axes, make the horizontal stab fixed and probably add endplate rudders for low-speed directional stability and I think you'll be closer to the mark.
They are not selling in that configuration, the very reason I started the thread.

I believe it comes down to them not looking like a plane, and a natural concern of learning new skillz. I would want the changeover to be painless for plane people.

From a practical point I would only have to trim my wings back to the flaps, they would become the ailerons then, with no other current structure design mods.

A more modern one here btw ..
http://www.oskbes.ru/208-e.html
 

vtul

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Just wondering with low area, low aspect ratio wing, and a small rotor disk, what are the dead stick characteristics? Too slow and the wing stalls, too fast and what's happening with the rotor? Also autogyros can autorotate power-out to a short landing distance and survive, but it seems like the wing of this new idea would be non-functional in that condition.

The old winged autogyros had small high aspect ratio wings, and sizable rotors.
 

ToddK

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My understanding is that the tractor is far more difficult to accidentally "bunt over" which is a big plus in my opinion.

The open pusher configuration seems more "fun", and is typically simpler. Think Gyrobee and the Hornet gyro. The big expenses are the wing(blade), the head, and the motor all of which are typically purchased. Everything else goes together pretty fast. The end result is that there is a big cash outlay up front vs over time with building a traditional aircraft.

Another problem is instruction. Very few gyro instructors out there.
 

vtul

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I remember reading about the big issue of PIO during gyro training. Now that multirotors are routinely using fly by wire digital stabilization, maybe gyros could also benefit.
 

cheapracer

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Huh? No wings!
Yes, point was it's not selling either.


The open pusher configuration seems more "fun", and is typically simpler. Think Gyrobee and the Hornet gyro.
Sure, but think of how many open cockpit planes sell today, yup, just about none. Romantic, but the modern person wants to be comfortable, that's just a fact.


The big expenses are the wing(blade), the head, and the motor all of which are typically purchased. Everything else goes together pretty fast. The end result is that there is a big cash outlay up front vs over time with building a traditional aircraft.
Simple tilting heads I can make myself, still not sure about blades. I can extrude the standardised sizes they use no problem, under 8"/200mm dirt cheap, but I might have trouble if it needs to be better than the 6061T6 I can do locally.


Another problem is instruction. Very few gyro instructors out there.
One of the primary reasons I want to keep it as a plane with standardised plane controls, as I mentioned above. Pilots get in and just fly it as a plane. Think of the rotor purely as an additional lifting device only for STOL and anti-stall.

5.2 meter gyro 2.jpg
 

vtul

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I made a faux gyro model, with a wing shaped rotor, just to see what would happen. Flew quite well. Very docile. Never tried a high alpha faux autorotation landing. Maybe I should have!

test2.png

Tried videoing first flight with a homemade hatcam -- stays mostly in frame -- added here for amusement, anyway:

[video=dailymotion;x5diuva]https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5diuva[/video]
 

cheapracer

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Just wondering with low area, low aspect ratio wing, and a small rotor disk, what are the dead stick characteristics? Too slow and the wing stalls, too fast and what's happening with the rotor? Also autogyros can autorotate power-out to a short landing distance and survive, but it seems like the wing of this new idea would be non-functional in that condition.
The wing loading is low because the rotor is taking some, they are complimenting each other to an extent I expect.

I am being realistic, I'm not expecting the dead stop landings seen in the videos, obviously one would hope for halfway between the 2, very slow short landings.


I remember reading about the big issue of PIO during gyro training. Now that multirotors are routinely using fly by wire digital stabilization, maybe gyros could also benefit.
This is not a short coupled gyrocopter using rotor control, this is a proper length plane using a HS for pitch.
 

cheapracer

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I made a faux gyro model, with a wing shaped rotor, just to see what would happen. Flew quite well. Very docile. Never tried a high alpha faux autorotation landing. Maybe I should have!
Awesome!

No sunburn either!
 

cluttonfred

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I made a faux gyro model, with a wing shaped rotor, just to see what would happen. Flew quite well. Very docile. Never tried a high alpha faux autorotation landing. Maybe I should have!
"Very cool" and "brrrrrr" at the same time. ;-p
 

vtul

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Ooops, I meant rotor shaped wing, not a wing shaped rotor.....uhhhhh....

nevertheless......

Thanks guys! It was a momentary aberration, but it did actually fly
 

Jerry Lytle

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Yes, point was it's not selling either.




Sure, but think of how many open cockpit planes sell today, yup, just about none. Romantic, but the modern person wants to be comfortable, that's just a fact.




Simple tilting heads I can make myself, still not sure about blades. I can extrude the standardised sizes they use no problem, under 8"/200mm dirt cheap, but I might have trouble if it needs to be better than the 6061T6 I can do locally.




One of the primary reasons I want to keep it as a plane with standardised plane controls, as I mentioned above. Pilots get in and just fly it as a plane. Think of the rotor purely as an additional lifting device only for STOL and anti-stall.

View attachment 61745
Gyros never fly just like a plane. The biggest learning factor is rotor control , after that they fly but not much like a plane.
 
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