Winter depression anyone?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Mac790, Feb 6, 2010.

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  1. Feb 11, 2010 #41

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    I hate nuclear. The only good place for it is on Titan Saturn's moon there even the leftovers are life (haet). Utah down wind from the A-bomb tests in the '50s. I know a thing or two about cancer and radiation. If the US was to commit to switching from oil to solar for the power source for personal transportation then the price of PV would drop. Volume production. We see eye too eye so far.



    I have thought about those people that will be displaced by rising ocean levels. What is better for everyone? The northern hemisphere covered in ice down the the US Canadian border? Or Bangladesh covered with water? The arctic and antarctic waters are the most productive fisheries in the world what would happen if you cover them with ice so they get no sun? The people that are displaced by rising water can move somewhere else. Cut off the worlds food and everyone dies. Well not everyone but a lot of people do.
    That is just about my point. The amount of CO2 given to the air by cooking and SMALL scale iron production is a nonevent as far as CO2 goes. Soot on the other hand.... I watched a discovery channel blip that showed the soot line in a peat bog in England from the industrial revolution. If you can see the soot in the peat bog now you can see the soot in the snow on top of the peak bog then. Big swing in albedo starting runaway melting still going on today? The link posted with arguments about why global worming isn't caused by CO2 and the science that proves it wrong has missed a point. That point is this the worlds climate has A LOT OF INERTIA. You have to push on it for a long time to get it to move. The argument about albedo said that it had been pushing counter to the temp swing from the 1970's on. Well NOW is when I'd expect to start to see a change from that.
    I don't. I watched Al Gore's movie and thought the problem through for my self. The conclusion that I came to was that He was wrong and that it wasn't CO2 that it was albedo. When the temp started going up the CO2 emissions were really small. But the soot was large. What had the bigger effect? My best guess is the soot.
    What would you say if 99 doctors said you were alright and one said you had a problem? Would you ignore the one and go with the 99? I've got a rare condition that isn't recognized by the medical establishment (yet). I can't eat gluten. It doesn't mix with my Asperger's. 25 doctors have told me it is all in my head and not real. Well when I wnet gluten free the problems went away and when I have it they come back. So I don't listen to them.
    Been there done that got the T shirt. I've asked some hard Qs would you think about them pleas?
     
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  2. Feb 11, 2010 #42

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    You changed what you wrote and what you quoted of me after the fact. And so this statement of yours is a lie. And in doing this you abused you moderator privileges.
     
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  3. Feb 11, 2010 #43

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    You changed what you wrote and what you quoted of me after the fact. And so this statement of yours is a lie. And in doing this you abused you moderator privileges.
     
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  4. Feb 11, 2010 #44

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    You changed what you wrote and what you quoted of me after the fact. And so this statement of yours is a lie. And in doing this you abused you moderator privileges.
     
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  5. Feb 11, 2010 #45

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    Thanks to many of you for making the point I was going to address in my follow-on post... that there are hidden environmental costs in even the seemingly cleanest power sources, from the extraction of minerals for PV cells or nuclear, to the manufacture of wind generators, to maybe even minor effects of the most obscure factors such as albedo variations caused by a proliferation of solar panels or reduction to net wind velocities due to extraction by too many wind generators.

    I have not seen it from beginning to end, but have seen large portions of it in various viewings. What struck me about the movie is that he drew from experts of many fields who told what would happen within their area of study "IF" the global temperatures increased, but he did not have any climatology experts to prove that there was global warming. In essence, he showed that global warming would be bad for the status quo, but he did not show that it actually existed. Not only that, but as Dana pointed out, global warming might not destroy environments... it might just shift them to more northern locations.

    Personally, I'm cold and still waiting for them to follow through on their threats of global warming. :gig:

    Bruce :)
     
  6. Feb 11, 2010 #46

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    I am all for alternative energy that is affordable. But for a different reason and that is our trade deficit. I don't and never have bought into this Global Warming / now Climate Change / tomorrow who knows what they will call it. They took away our most efficiant affordable refrigerant R12, now they tell us we are going to use Propane in our appliances, WHAT!!!! Like the Englishman said aboard the Hindenburg:
    "Did you know this bloody thing is filled with Hydrogen"
     
  7. Feb 11, 2010 #47

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    I don't think storage is the issue. As long as there is radio activity present, there is energy available for extraction. We need to develop clean and efficient secondary and tertiary methods of reprocessing and extracting energy from used fuel rods. I believe the French use a secondary extraction process.
     
  8. Feb 11, 2010 #48

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    That is my primary reason for trying to do something about getting off of oil for transportation. OPEC is mad at us the US. They fiddle with the oil supply just to hurt us. And they've got a bunch of money to dump that can be used to hurt us as well. From a strategic point of view we need to stop buying there product.

    The problem with reprocessing is book keeping with more reworking of the fuel it becomes easier to skim some off of the top for... well... not nice things. Ship it to Titan. Titan should have lots of Li. Have a colony on Titan and use the stuff there so that we can get stuff from outer space easy.
     
  9. Feb 11, 2010 #49

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    Having only watched the movie once and that was when it was in the $1 movies. What he said for the reason that the temp was going up was his own personal observation that the temps were going up and that CO2 was going up. He also showed a chart of the CO2 levels over time. It was a beautiful piece of propaganda. The framing on the shots and the use of his height as the scale to match the natural variations of the CO2 level to the man made ones was simply brilliant. He shot the movie to get an emotional response. People felt that CO2 was wrong. I asked is it? Is he right? The answer I got was NO he wasn't right he had looked at the problem from the framework of his life time. He hadn't looked at it from the framework of a geological time scale and from that point of reference the answer that you get is very different.
     
  10. Feb 11, 2010 #50

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    I was talking about the whole cost. Not based on rumors, but on Tim van der Hagen and his lifetime cost analysis for a nuclear reactor.

    Realistic estimates, based on reality which is way better than guesstimates.

    Waste storage cost are minimal, the major part of the cost is not uranium storage, but storage of the leftovers of the reactor after decommissioning and the cost to dismantle that reactor.

    And radioactive waste? It's not active any more after only 100 years if you use modern techniques that are used right now in Europe. (The techniques BCMJ referred too are also used in Borsele) I've been living next to the reactor for 18 years and it's by far the least annoying way to generate power compared to the windmills and coal power plant that were around us there...

    Shouldn't base your opinion of fission techniques on ancient systems...
     
  11. Feb 11, 2010 #51

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    That is a very insightful observation!
     
  12. Feb 11, 2010 #52

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    I am bacing my opinion of the N option on my dad's and grand dad's death from cancer from radiation expossure.
     
  13. Feb 11, 2010 #53

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    So you're comparing a 60 year old atomic bomb fall-out to a modern fission reactor?
     
  14. Feb 11, 2010 #54

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    Nope

    I just say leave the stuff in the ground or ship it to titan. Reprocecing fuel gets you concetrated Pu and that you can make a bomb out of. Digging the stuff up gets you tailings waste that kills for a verry long time. Millions of years. It is a real mess. You got a dose from chernoble. Maybe not a big one. But you did. I just plain don't Like N. Leave it alone. Solar that is a good way to go.
     
  15. Feb 11, 2010 #55

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    Just for your information, the dose I got from Chernobyl is about the same as I or you get from living in a concrete building for 1 month or what someone in the mountains gets in a couple of days of background radiation....

    I highlighted the factual errors in your reply by making them bolt.
    Well, above you're doing exactly what I was referring to, you're using 60 year old, experimental weapons to put down commercial energy generation?

    That's like claiming a 747 is unsafe to fly because the Wright bros tended to crash..
     
  16. Feb 11, 2010 #56

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    Try telling the mother Of a child that was killed by a drunk driver that dropping the drinking from 21 (that is what it is here) to 19 (that is what it was in Wyoming when I was 19.) is a good idea.



    Fact how you separate Pu from U is by chemical means. Fact looking at the geography of the mines in Australia he climate there the tailing could very well still be a mess in 1 Million years. Dry arid climate (I know what that is like) The tailings will be just about where you put them now in how ever long a time from that you want to look at. They will just sit there and leach into the ground water. Practically forever. Took a look and it looks about as dry there as I'm familiar with here.



    No it is not. It is like saying that we shouldn't fly 747s because they can and have been used as WMDs. The Pu in reprocessed fuel rods can be removed and used for making WMDs and used for that purpose. That was why Carter banned the practice in the US. Some of the newer designs are harder to do this with but... The reactor itself can be used as a WMD.
     
  17. Feb 12, 2010 #57

    Dana

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    Some random observations:

    CO2 levels tend to correlate with global temperatures, yes... but correlation is not causation. Actually, the best picture we have right now is that CO2 levels follow temperature... meaning that high temperatures cause the rise in CO2 levels, not the other way around.

    Compare Al Gore's net financial worth back when he was VP... with today, when he's a self proclaimed AGW saviour (or whatever). He's made millions on this scam.

    Also note how dramatically steep a graph looks when you choose the axis scales and leave zero way off the bottom of the chart...

    The really nasty nuclear wastes have a fairly short half life. Lock 'em up for a few years and they're not that dangerous any more. For the lower activity, long half life ones, it's simple: Cast 'em into glass blocks, stack 'em in an unused corner of desert somewhere, and surround them with a fence and signs, "IF YOU CROSS THIS FENCE YOU WILL DIE". Some people will ignore the signs. Think of it as evolution in action.

    Or drop it into a subjection zone in an ocean trench... but someday we may want that stuff (gasoline was once considered a dangerous, useless waste product in oil refining).

    There are, of course, trace amounts of radioactive elements in **** near everything. A coal fired electric plant puts more radioactivity into the air than any nuclear plant (OK, except Chernobyl, but that was a special case).

    Re R12: Isn't it funny that R12 was the best refrigerant and we needed it and it was patented... and then the patent expired and all of the sudden it was bad and we needed something else (R134) which doesn't work as well but has a brand new patent?

    -Dana

    Exceeding the legal fun limit on a regular basis!
     
  18. Feb 12, 2010 #58

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    Just for kicks one day I filled two balloons, one with my mouth and the other with R-12. Dropped them and the R-12 hit the ground like a brick. Now how is something much heavier than air punching holes in the Ozone? More Gore Bull? I am no chemist but I smell a rat.

    The new refers with 134 don't cool worth a darn that is why they are going to propane. How many children will be blown to bits for Uncle Al's carbon credits?
     
  19. Feb 12, 2010 #59

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    Guys, In the last 3 day I have spent 35 hours plowing snow ( 28 straight )on tuesday, plus working at my service co. So today I said screw it I am going flying, I race home and to the airport, they plowed the grass runway, its sunny , clear, and not to cold. My instructer had just landed, I was going solo (25 hrs in so far) so I taxy out and do my run up. Well I check flaps in pre flight but I also check them out at the runway. The flaps come down but wont go up,nada it just aint going to happen, so I taxy back and put the plane away. Some days just suck.
    I told the owner about the plane and kinda gave it to her that when I get to fly my plane that will never happen to me. NO FLAPS.
    I love the money I make in the winter but please hurry summer.
     
  20. Feb 12, 2010 #60

    Flying Monkey

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    CfA Press Release

    CfA Press Release

    Harvard U

    "20th Century Climate Not So Hot

    Cambridge, MA - A review of more than 200 climate studies led by researchers at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics has determined that the 20th century is neither the warmest century nor the century with the most extreme weather of the past 1000 years.

    The review also confirmed that the Medieval Warm Period of 800 to 1300 A.D. and the Little Ice Age of 1300 to 1900 A.D. were worldwide phenomena not limited to the European and North American continents. While 20th century temperatures are much higher than in the Little Ice Age period, many parts of the world show the medieval warmth to be greater than that of the 20th century. .."

    ====

    On a longer ( than the medieval warm period/little ice age ) term scale, since half of the warming that brought us out of the last ice age (the Wisconsin) occurred

    in less than a decade:

    (
    Two examples of abrupt climate change )
    Two examples of abrupt climate change )

    the current multidecadal temperature variations are subsumed easily within the bounds of statistical noise .



    Ten degrees C in ten years from natural causes ( before there were humans ) is substantially more than any current hypothetically human-induced climate effect.
    ( National Academies Press )
    http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10136&page=R5



    A bit of paleoclimatology might remind us that we are currently living in a brief interglacial, during which all civilization arose -very brief moments in the life of a planet which is dominated by long ,frozen periods.

    We know that the past 6 interglacials (dating back to the Mid Pleistocene Transition) have lasted roughly half of a precessional cycle, or currently 11,500 years, which just happens to be the present age of the Holocene.

    A little orbital wobble, which induced previous ice ages-and we won't be able to build coal fired plants fast enough to survive.

    Unless , of course, we comfort ourselves in believing that some atmospheric carbon molecules will once again travel back in time-like they must have done in the past to warm things up so fast-and save us.

    ===

    I really wish the global warming hypothesis were true, though...
    Edmonton breaks weather record for coldest December 13 - Posted
    :)

     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010

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