# Why Inexpensive? Results and Conclusions

Discussion in 'General Experimental Aviation Questions' started by Topaz, Sep 24, 2016.

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1. Sep 26, 2016

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Neither do I. I suspect it's a bit of all the factors. Too slow build times, not enough innovation that focuses on reducing build time without reducing build time by paying professionals to do it.

I think the remark on single-seaters is dead on. I generally am a firm believer in capitalism and especially where it concerns prices of 2nd hand airframes. There's good reasons an RV8 sells for more than say a C310 with a few hundred hours left on it's engines.

Single-seaters have notoriously low resale values and I think that reflects the actual value prospective buyers put on them. If a nice flying plane like a Hummel bird sells for 8K or 10K, why on earth would someone be interested in a kit that wouldn't be significantly cheaper.
The disparity between poll results and airframes on the market mostly. It might be that we're a small group of statistical outliers (not entirely unplausible ), but in that case, those voting should have run into a plane that fits their poll results. It might also be that those voting really want a 2-seater in which case the market is a lot sparser in this category. Personally (opinion, not data), I suspect that's the major cause.

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2. Sep 26, 2016

### don january

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I did'nt, It's just an out look that I read in my mind not only over your poll's but many HBA threads in general. Many persons have talked about flying an aircraft 254 lb(par 103)or less rather because their health hold's them back from a medical, or the cost of obtaining a license.

3. Sep 26, 2016

### don january

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I would like all HBA members who truly want their own plane to think of this. In the nearly 2 year's I've shared this site I've seen many,many blue print's,and Aircraft offered for sale "CHEAP" I my self have posted my KR-2 for $3000.00 on this forum with not even a nibble. Right now we have a member posting some Thatcher CX5 print's for$150.00 below cost. I my self also offered prints cheap($125.00) for PDQ UL that I believe can't even be bought any more. I came to the conclusion in my mind that the many of persons on the site are rocking chair pilot's, wanna be's, or what ever. I know these word's seem harsh but they are of my own thoughts. If a person is using this forum just for keeping in touch with aviation then fine, but if you really want to fly put a build table beside your computer and get an aircraft, forget about what you feel your time is worth$$Glider, Toobuilder and BBerson like this. 4. Sep 26, 2016 ### bmcj ### bmcj #### Well-Known MemberHBA Supporter Joined: Apr 10, 2007 Messages: 12,841 Likes Received: 4,799 Location: Fresno, California Perhaps the poll question should be: Your dream plane/kit/plans just came on the market at a price you cannot pass up. How much can you scrounge up to purchase said plane/kit/plans? AdrianS, Glider and don january like this. 5. Sep 27, 2016 ### Topaz ### Topaz #### Super Moderator Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Messages: 13,628 Likes Received: 5,279 Location: Orange County, California Given how close together the single-seat and two-seat numbers are in the applicable poll, with two-seaters slightly in the lead, I suspect (also opinion) that, while the person responding themselves would be fine with a single-seater, other factors (spouse, friends, etc.) conspire to push them towards a two-seater. And yes, there's a real dearth of two-seaters at this price point that don't fall some distance from the rest of the characteristics pointed out in that poll. This niche may not be "working" simply because there's a dearth of designs that really meet the interests of those shopping in it. Also agreed on the rest of your post. 6. Sep 27, 2016 ### Glider ### Glider #### Well-Known Member Joined: Jan 10, 2016 Messages: 164 Likes Received: 41 Location: North Bumble, Alabama / USA I'm going back to my sailing point because I'm in a similar position regarding flying. I had wanted a "high performance" dinghy for decades. The "Laser" isn't terribly expensive, but I didn't live near good water for most of those decades, or had no extra money. I'm too tall and heavy for a dinghy, but that didn't stop me from buying one as soon as I lived near familiar water. Made the decision, after reading advertisements for countless junk used boats offered for a significant fraction of the new price, that buying new was the way to go. Only a rich lawyer (loaded,$$$$) in the area also had new(ish) boats (for himself and kids), and he ended up buying mine when my job moved me away (he is a fantastic sailor). There were about 35 boats, identical to mine, in the marina, and another 25 in the metro area. Hard core adult sailors all (plus a couple of kids), who fielded a 30+ boat regatta on New Year's morning, with ice floats on the water (tippy boat). I felt embarrassed that I had a new boat ($5k) at the marina. I am only a passable sailor. So many people, with worn out 10-20 year old equipment, non-regulation sails, seemed to want a new boat too (but, they were doing fine with what they brought, which they might have owned for a decade+).

There were also the people who wanted to sail, but hadn't done anything about it, and who'd wax to me once in a while on shore.

Money, desire, opportunity, and follow-through. Every piece is necessary to make something happen.

I'm constantly on the edge of dropping out of flying because of deficits in all categories. Hangar space, value, desirable (sexy/comfortable) plane, potential pain of responsible ownership, interesting missions, they are all problems for me at this stage.

The plane itself is a smallish factor.

7. Sep 27, 2016

### pwood66889

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I would hate to see you go with out being able to visit North Bumble. In a couple weeks I should have a prognosus on the coupe.
Percy in SE Bama

Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
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8. Sep 27, 2016

### VFR-on-top

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Without veering the topic off too much, I'd like to point out that that discussion following the polls and findings are revealing things some of us have not expected -- for example, some of us are not flying much (or at all), and are thinking about leaving the sport. Thanks for the gut honesty.

Kudos to Topaz for this undertaking.

9. Sep 27, 2016

### mcrae0104

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This is a really interesting thing to consider.

I've always thought I wanted a 2-seater. But working through the math of the trade-offs, I've recently made peace with a single seat. Given the inexpensive engines that are the foundation of affordable (sorry for the loaded term) aviation, the performance (range or speed, choose some combination) that can be extracted from a single seat is hard to resist, especially if you have a two-seat something-or-other available for rent to take others for the occasional joy ride or introduction to the joys of flight.

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10. Sep 27, 2016

### Victor Bravo

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Now you're talking! If we can just get you to bring that lift distribution curve in your avatar down underneath the wing just a little near the tips, you'll be on the right track

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11. Sep 27, 2016

### mcrae0104

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Sorry to disappoint you, VB, but my current design is utterly conventional. I'll leave the flying wings to Aerowerx to work out.

12. Sep 27, 2016

### BBerson

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I read today that EAA just surpassed 200,000 members. It can't be an influx of new interest in inexpensive aviation, in my opinion, since EAA has mostly abandoned that area.
It could be a result of AOPA losing it's members to EAA. Or it could be the membership is mostly "enthusiasts", not active owners or builders.

13. Sep 27, 2016

### gtae07

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If I could find a trailerable, "airworthy" powered Part 103 aircraft for $3-5k, I might consider it. Anything past that is too much a threat budget-wise to my current build project. I don't have the time to restore or finish another project, I don't want an aircraft that I can't maintain on my own*, and hangar/maintenance/insurance for anything bigger would eat up the money currently going into my build. I've made enough stupid decisions that have delayed my project as it is; at this rate I'm looking at not being done for at least another five years--and that's assuming no other major home life changes like a move, job change, or another adoption. Adding another airplane would be another few years' delay. *With no disrespect intended to the A&Ps on the board, I don't see why ~2000 hours and qualification/training to work on not just little airplanes, but on every construction method, radial engines, jets, helicopters, and so on is required to be able to work on/inspect one specific aircraft that you own. I'm likely going to wind up with my dad's RV-6 eventually; it's irritating that despite all of my involvement in building and maintaining it, my professional experience in aircraft systems engineering, and my build of a very similar aircraft, I'd have to go pay someone else to do the condition inspection every year. Some theories: - A vote for a single seat may have been a minimum requirement, not a maximum. That is, "I'm ok with a single seat and don't need a second seat, but won't object to one, all other things equal" as opposed to "I want one seat and one seat only". At least, that was my vote. - The point about a lack of many suitable engines is probably on target. By the time you get an engine that can take two modern adults up in an airplane with better than marginal performance, you're spending some real money. rdj and Glider like this. 14. Sep 27, 2016 ### Himat ### Himat #### Well-Known Member Joined: May 5, 2011 Messages: 2,771 Likes Received: 636 Location: Norway And the same 20 30 people may not have participated in all the polls. I did answer some of the polls, but not all. That might make it even more difficult to conclude from the results. :gig: 15. Sep 27, 2016 ### Topaz ### Topaz #### Super Moderator Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Messages: 13,628 Likes Received: 5,279 Location: Orange County, California Yep. Things like this are why I've gone out of my way to make sure everyone understands the limitations of what I've done here. The answers are suggestive, not concrete. Anyone who tells you that any kind of marketing survey will give you "concrete results" is clearly selling marketing surveys. 16. Sep 28, 2016 ### Topaz ### Topaz #### Super Moderator Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Messages: 13,628 Likes Received: 5,279 Location: Orange County, California 17. Sep 29, 2016 ### pwood66889 ### pwood66889 #### Well-Known Member Joined: Feb 10, 2007 Messages: 1,403 Likes Received: 137 Location: Sopchoppy, Florida, USA Saw a CA-2 for$4K north of Atlanta just a while back. Ya gotta watch Craigs List.

No disrespect taken, GTae. Georgia isn't so far away that you couldn't flit down here. And I have an IA that annuals singles for \$350.

Percy (FAA Mechanic with Airframe and Power plant ratings) in SE Bama

18. Sep 30, 2016

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