Some education if someone has the time, please

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
10,891
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
I have followed the Viking Honda almost since inception. "Lot of Folks" is just not the fact.
I know several. But I have some questions. Does Jan still provide support for his Subaru-based FWF packages? How many did he sell?

[pThe Viking is a solid and proven engine, outstanding work to improve over time. Check and see what those hundreds of delighted customers have to say.
Are they flying, or still in construction?


BJC
 

geosnooker2000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
108
Location
Somerville, TN
I think you need to design the airplane first and then accept what engine it will need to work. Airplane numbers are always fudged to look good.

The Tsi, if you put four people in it and 250 lb of bags, which is probably impossible to keep in CG, you would have 65 lb left for fuel. That’s 11 gallons instead of the 45 it can hold. Full of fuel, you can carry three people and the bags. The speed they are advertising is true airspeed at 9500. It a 130 kt airplane; that is what shows on the airspeed gauge. Because of less air friction the plane will go faster the higher it goes. The climb they state is one person and half fuel; that’s the standard. Full, I bet 500 ft a min is being generous.

It is working on 140 turbo and what that is doing is allowing is not loosing power at altitude like a natural aspirated Lycoming would. That’s the only reason 140 hp is working. It will stink taking off but at 10000 ft it will be making what a 200 hp non turbo engine does. It just has to make it the hard way. Bill Clapp is doing a turbo Corvair, but I don’t know how hard he is pushing it.

My bet is if you want the load you dream of, you need 200 hp engine. If you are really going to travel with 4 often, the plane will be 15% bigger than you are thinking it should be.
No. I don't imagine it will be often. An example: I have a 7 passenger Explorer. I have only filled up the seats once in the year I've owned it, but I would not trade the third row seats just because the frequency of use is low. So, I imagine one or two trips per year to the ski slopes our west with two daughters and ski gear. That would be max weight. Several other times we and another couple go for the $100 hamburger. MOSTLY... me and the wife go fishing in the ozarks/go to Tampa to visit a good friend couple of ours/go to wherever her annual conference is without having to deal with connecting flights and TSA/etc. So I imagine the most often experience would be 2 people plus luggage.
 

wsimpso1

Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2003
Messages
6,532
Location
Saline Michigan
I have followed the Viking Honda almost since inception. "Lot of Folks" is just not the fact.

Go to the Viking Forum or the Viking specific Zenith Forum and you will find the opposite. One guy messed with the ECU and blamed the factory everywhere he could get an audience. All this is just left over from Jan's Subaru problems. Get over it.

Seems some people just cannot move forward. All about the Viking Honda conversion is ready and available on the internet. Do the research instead of just making such comments to discourage people.

The Viking is a solid and proven engine, outstanding work to improve over time. Check and see what those hundreds of delighted customers have to say. They tell the fact.

Impossible to say that those hundreds of builders have failed to do their due diligence and are just befooled. Follow the engine and you will read First Flight posts and watch the videos year after year. Viking ships out multiple engines every week all over the US and the world. Time to move on.
Engenfellner has a reputation for deleting unfavorable comments about his engines, threatening lawsuits on folks who speak out, and generally bullying away folks who do not like what they got for their cash. If you do business with him, I do hope you have a good engine and love flying it. But if you do not, remember that you were warned...
 

wsimpso1

Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2003
Messages
6,532
Location
Saline Michigan
I know several. But I have some questions. Does Jan still provide support for his Subaru-based FWF packages? How many did he sell?

Are they flying, or still in construction?


BJC
Listen to Byron. Chase down these answers. Satisfy yourself on these concerns.
 

Toobuilder

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
4,684
Location
Mojave, Ca
I also understand Jan cruises forums under multiple identities to ensure at least some positive spin gets through. Might even be the case here.
 

Toobuilder

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
4,684
Location
Mojave, Ca
Geo-

I'd STRONGLY suggest you start flying before you make a commitment to your mission. Even if your mission survives your actual flying experience (mine sure didn't), your perception of real world performance certainty won't.

Bottom line is that you are looking for a replacement for a 180-200 HP aircraft engine. That's a tough niche for auto conversions.
 

PagoBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
94
Location
US Territory of Guam
I also understand Jan cruises forums under multiple identities to ensure at least some positive spin gets through. Might even be the case here.
Not the case here. See....so cheap and so easy just to dismiss what you don't like with a cheap personal attack.

I just appreciate fairness and honesty. Jan has a prickly personality. So what?? Anything so unique there?

AGAIN...for the real story just go to the Viking forum and the Viking specific Zenith forum and do some fair study.

And HEY.... Go watch Jon Croke, of HomeBuilt Help building a Zenith Super Duty with whom?? Jan Eggenfellner and his friend Vern.

Jon Croke flies his Zenith Cruzer with what?? A Viking 130 Honda.

Jon Croke of HomeBuilt Help is who?? Just one of the most respected individuals supporting the E-AB community.

WHERE::

In this Internet age, it is IMPOSSIBLE to cover up "Lots of Folks". BUT... all so easy to spread misinformation and exaggeration with just a bit of trash talk and dredging of past failures. Hard to do real research.

No one is saying Jan's Subaru days were a success. But this is America. The Viking Honda is a great engine choice and has served the E-AB community very well.

Viking has addressed these few two or three cases online where customers used the internet and the Zenith forum to make charges against the company. It is not difficult to understand the facts and the history.

But you will want to read instead of just bashing away because this is the Internet and it is so easy to avoid facts. It is called fairness and due diligence.
 

PagoBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
94
Location
US Territory of Guam
http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/super-duty-flew-to-sun-n-fun-sporting-a-brand-new-honda-engine?xg_source=msg_forum_disc

Watch the short video of Dave from Kansas talking about his experience as a Viking Customer.

From the Zenith Aircraft company website:
"The following engines have been installed and tested in the Zenith CH 650 prototypes at the factory: UL Power, Continental O-200, Jabiru 3300, Lycoming O-235, Rotax 912S, and Viking Engines. "

Zenith did not make this statement without due consideration of its customers' safety and satisfaction.

Just a fact.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

PagoBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
94
Location
US Territory of Guam
Geo-

Bottom line is that you are looking for a replacement for a 180-200 HP aircraft engine. That's a tough niche for auto conversions.
Viking has a 180HP Honda Accord engine. Buy new or used. Installed and flying on the Zenith Super Duty and also installed on a Just Aircraft SuperSTOL. The initial gear box was not up to the loads. Has been beefed up since. The 180HP will probably will go into Jon Croke's new Super Duty Zenith that is under construction now. See link above.
 

mcrae0104

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
3,225
Location
BJC
I have followed the Viking Honda almost since inception. "Lot of Folks" is just not the fact. ...Time to move on.
Hi RMM, welcome to HBA. I see you've been having this same fight other places too. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viking_Aircraft_Engine/conversations/topics/2307

You seem to be quite an apologist for Mr. Eggenfellner. Just to remove any doubt, would you be willing to tell us all here that you're not actually Jan?

Again, welcome, and good luck with your CH750 project.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
10,891
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
I know several. But I have some questions. Does Jan still provide support for his Subaru-based FWF packages? How many did he sell?

Are they flying, or still in construction?
You seem to be quite an apologist for Mr. Eggenfellner. Just to remove any doubt, would you be willing to tell us all here that you're not actually Jan?
... all so easy to spread misinformation and exaggeration with just a bit of trash talk and dredging of past failures. Hard to do real research.

But you will want to read instead of just bashing away because this is the Internet and it is so easy to avoid facts. It is called fairness and due diligence.
Agree that fairness and due diligence call for facts. Still waiting for answers to my questions:

Does Jan still provide support for his Subaru customers?

How many Viking engines are flying?

Also awaiting your answer to mcrae0104's question:

Are you Jan Eggenfellner?

Thank you,


BJC
 

Toobuilder

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
4,684
Location
Mojave, Ca
...Are you Jan Eggenfellner?..

BJC
This individual seems to have answered that question in post 68, but the behavior in this thread indicates otherwise.

IMHO, it takes a special brand of zealot to so casually dismiss the dismal past behavior of the Subbie experience. The poor engineering, having the customer perform development testing without their knowledge, the broken promises... This story is legendary among the Homebuilt community. Sounds like there was also a redesign of the 180 HP Accord powerplant... I assume this deficiency was found AFTER product release on a customer airplane rather than the test cell? Happy to hear otherwise.

Yep, people can change. But there is a particularly nasty legacy to overcome here - one of the worst in Homebuilt history. It's going to take more than a few positive posts from the manufacturers own message board to clear it up.
 
Last edited:

PagoBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
94
Location
US Territory of Guam
Hi RMM, welcome to HBA. I see you've been having this same fight other places too. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viking_Aircraft_Engine/conversations/topics/2307

You seem to be quite an apologist for Mr. Eggenfellner. Just to remove any doubt, would you be willing to tell us all here that you're not actually Jan?

Again, welcome, and good luck with your CH750 project.
======
I already did so. Just read. I clearly responded..."NOT THE CASE HERE" to the first such comment. What part of that is not clear?

And again if reading for facts and actual details is important...anyone is welcome to read those posts on the website you reference. Not difficult to understand that forum's real purpose. More name calling and repeated innuendo here does not change the facts.

I have explained my reasons for posting and given ample sources for those interested. I am apologizing for nobody. Fairness and facts matter. What I object to is conflating past failings with present success solely because it is easy to do in this Internet age.

Speaking out is a right and a responsibility. I take that seriously. The recurrent bashing of Viking based on old history and two or three problematic cases is unfair. Check out similar discussions on the Zenith and Viking forum. All the details are there. The Viking engine is an outstanding and excellent engine choice. My posts here are genuine.

You will also notice that I have said only positive things about FOUR other engine options. Apologizing for what exactly in doing so?? Just because you don't like what someone says then do whatever you can to diminish and disparage? Hardly a good example. The aviation community deserves better.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

geosnooker2000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2019
Messages
108
Location
Somerville, TN
Wonder what kind of feces storm I could get started over on the Corvair sub-forum just by asking a simple basic question that actually has to do with the engine itself....
Imma go find out.
 

PagoBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
94
Location
US Territory of Guam
This individual seems to have answered that question in post 68, but the behavior in this thread indicates otherwise.

IMHO, it takes a special brand of zealot to so casually dismiss the dismal past behavior of the Subbie experience. The poor engineering, having the customer perform development testing without their knowledge, the broken promises... This story is legendary among the Homebuilt community. Sounds like there was also a redesign of the 180 HP Accord powerplant... I assume this deficiency was found AFTER product release on a customer airplane rather than the test cell? Happy to hear otherwise.

Yep, people can change. But there is a particularly nasty legacy to overcome here - one of the worst in Homebuilt history. It's going to take more than a few positive posts from the manufacturers own message board to clear it up.
=======
===
Besides more name calling with the "Z" word, as if that diminishes the validity of what is on record here in this thread....If you want to write things like "Sounds like..." and "I assume..." followed by "Happy to hear otherwise"... then in effect all the effort is thrown on others to disprove your negative rumors and assumptions and nothing of substance regarding the Viking Honda has been presented to support your charges. Nothing offered as a basis.

If you are truly happy to hear otherwise, then do your homework. All there on the forum sites referenced.

As for the bigger Viking 180 Turbo, the only problem I have ever noted was the gearbox could not handle the load and was reworked into a beefed up design. All those details were online for anyone happy to read. The Viking factory did the testing and did the needed improvements. That particular aircraft is the first Super Duty kit from the Zenith factory.

As far as the 110hp and now 130hp and 180hp Viking engines, if you track the story, there is a long history of improvements. Nothing unusual there. You can read about the same for any challenging product development cycle including UL Power and Jabiru to name just two engines that have their own histories. But they are well proven now, just as the Viking Honda conversion. Nothing surprising at all.

Jan will never overcome his Subaru history. But the Viking Honda is not the same legacy repeated. Seems people just wanted him to fail and when instead the Viking went from modest success with the 110HP to hundreds of engines with the 130hp, some folks just could not tolerate it and use every means to trash and bash what is obviously an excellent and well supported E-AB engine option. There are some interesting few threads on the Zenith Viking engine forum that is worth the time to anyone "happy to read".

As far as the "character and integrity" charge... I already noted that Jan is not an easy character at times. But the "Lots of Folks" line is just bunk.

The HUNDREDS of Viking owners and all the successful first flights is the real story. Those builders are fully capable of sorting out the history and the present. They are as intelligent and diligent as anyone here. That is a FACT. Can you say "Hundreds of Happy Owners of Viking Honda Aircraft Engines" without getting your knickers all in a bunch while choking on your beer?

The Subaru issues are real history. Now like what... twelve years later, the Viking Honda is a real success and that is good for E-AB.

I am happy to see options. And I am happy to wish Viking even greater success in the future. No apologies given or needed for that.
 
2
Top