Some education if someone has the time, please

Discussion in 'Subaru' started by geosnooker2000, Apr 3, 2019.

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  1. Apr 3, 2019 #1

    geosnooker2000

    geosnooker2000

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    So, starting from this (eJ25 Turbo):
    [​IMG]

    What has to be subtracted and added to use this in a Firewall forward application on, say, a Sling Tsi? I know enough to know a special engine mount would need to be fabricated, and a PSRU. What else? I'm a noob, in case you couldn't tell (LOL).
    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Apr 3, 2019 #2

    Geraldc

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    Is this what you mean?
     
  3. Apr 3, 2019 #3

    Voidhawk9

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  4. Apr 4, 2019 #4

    TFF

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  5. Apr 4, 2019 #5

    Dan Thomas

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    A bunch of money is subtracted from your bank account.
     
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  6. Apr 4, 2019 #6

    geosnooker2000

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    This is the most helpful response yet! Thank you. It would be even more helpful if I knew what all was absolutely required (to make it work and what the FAA requires), like I under stand that the purpose of magnetos is to power the plane without using the battery and to continuously run the engine without worrying about battery failure. Are auto conversions "retrofitted" with magnetos because of that need? Does the FAA require them on aircraft? I kind of get the feeling not due to a little paragraph I read on that site you linked.
    Say I bought the engine in the first post (assuming it is in top shape). I would also buy an EFI system from SDS and replace the one that came on the car with it? And that's it? Like, I would assume there are other things that need to be fabricated, right? Like the breather box, different headers ( i guess a local muffler shop could build me some to my specs?), a cabin heater shroud around the exhaust headers? I guess what I would find most helpful is a video of someone building an auto-conversion. I have searched, but to no avail.
    ETA: Just found one, gonna go watch it. It's 26 minutes long so maybe it gets into some of the details I'm looking for.
    If you guys want to help, start a list of what all needs to be done to an engine from a car to make it great in a plane. I got step one...
    1) Buy an EFI from SDS
    2) Build a motor mount for my particular air-frame
    3 ?
     
  7. Apr 4, 2019 #7

    Voidhawk9

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    OK, you really are learning from scratch. There is no simple, fixed formula for this.
    I recommend some 'light reading' here for many examples you can learn from: http://www.contactmagazine.com/altengines.html

    Oh, and 3) A gearbox / PSRU
     
  8. Apr 4, 2019 #8

    rv6ejguy

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    This engine will be way too heavy for this aircraft, probably 100+ pounds heavier than the Rotax normally fitted.

    Unless you're an experienced engine guy and welder/ fabricator, my recommendation is to not start a project like this. It will take hundreds of hours of custom work to fit it and convert the engine for aviation use.

    You might look at the engines offered by Aeromomentum but even then, you'll have to build engine mounts and radiator setups to use. Fabrication/ welding skills will still be required.
     
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  9. Apr 4, 2019 #9

    geosnooker2000

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  10. Apr 4, 2019 #10

    geosnooker2000

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    The thing that concerns me about PSRUs is that you are transferring all of that pulling force from the prop from the crank shaft to the output shaft of the PSRU. Bearings will be real important. Basically the whole weight of the airplane is being pulled by this one output shaft, not to mention the bolts that hold the PSRU to the bell housing of the engine. So basically the whole PSRU (casing and bearings) is to bear ALL of the thrust force. IDK... when you think about it, it's not as bad as holding the airplane up in the air hanging by the prop. The thrust force is only equal to the drag it is overcoming.... except for when it is climbing.
     
  11. Apr 4, 2019 #11

    Dana

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    For an experimental aircraft, the FAA requires nothing, you're on your own. Traditionally, magnetos have been used on aircraft because back in the day, most aircraft didn't have batteries or any electrical system at all. Even today, many homebuilts at the lighter end of the spectrum still have no electrical system, to save weight, complexity, and cost.

    Yes, the propeller's thrust will have to be counteracted by the PSRU bearings... which is a good thing, as it's not terribly difficult to design for-- the thrust loads are a few hundred pounds, nowhere near the weight of the aircraft-- and the engine's internal bearings are rarely designed for any significant thrust loads at all.
     
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  12. Apr 4, 2019 #12

    rv6ejguy

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    You can look at my journey in fitting a Subaru EJ22T to the RV6A pictured here, 16 years and 431 hours ago: http://www.sdsefi.com/rv4.htm This will give you some idea of what you're in for.
     
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  13. Apr 4, 2019 #13

    geosnooker2000

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    Oh, yes. I have read that, and will re-read it several times. My (and anyone's) reading comprehension suffers when you don't understand, or are not as familiar with some of the terminology. Not necessarily your article, but many. But like, "intercooler". I've heard that all my life, mostly relating to racing or 4X4s, but I don't know what it's for. Oil, air, or tranny fluid?
     
  14. Apr 4, 2019 #14

    TFF

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    I hate to be the downer always, but I tend to give practical answers and auto engines are not cheap. It is a hobby unto itself. It is a cool hobby. I love engines, I love cars, I love airplanes. Back in the 90s I thought it was the only way to go. I get why someone wants to tinker with one, but that is the answer, wants to tinker. You must love engines and know them. You also must like being able to discern the good and bad of the adaptation and fixing it. 100% bolt on and go is not how it works. With any major horsepower, I would bet 30% don’t have to re engineer some facet of the installation. You had a question on engine mounts, that’s easy. Trying to figure out why your combo has eaten three crankshafts when no one else has ,happens. Yes there are better combos that have good reputations. They are not fool proof. Many tweaks are made. It is the ultimate frontier of homebuilding to do the auto engine. Lots of personal rewards if you succeed. If you don’t play in a machine shop for fun, you will have a hard row to hoe. I personally put the engine together on my project, but I barely had the time to do that and in my budget. If I was having to machine fixes, it would not have been finished. Getting the simplest project done in this hobby is high end work. It’s got to fly. Quality control has to be high. Building is a huge challenge for everyone. Adding an auto engine doubled it. A decent shape , used not new, airplane engine will always be cheaper, if you count all time and all money. New airplane engine would be cheaper if any major setbacks. Do I want a Jag v-12 spitfire, yes. I could never pull off the never ending work it would be required. Those are not projects you can do unless you are a recluse builder with lots of money, and your family does not need to see you.
     
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  15. Apr 4, 2019 #15

    geosnooker2000

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    Like here's an example of how ignorant I am. I have been looking at this subject for years. Mostly though Kitplanes articles. I JUST REALIZED last night... the engine is backwards. That's the reason the PSRU hooks up to the bell-housing. Please understand, I am not some idiot who never got his hands greasy. I have replaced heads on my 4.0L push-rod Explorer, replaced a front-end differential on a 4x4, etc.
     
  16. Apr 4, 2019 #16

    geosnooker2000

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    \

    (Assuming you mean, a used certified airplane) Until you have to get the engine rebuilt on the FAAs time table. And my time is not worth what others is. The thing is, you have to have tasks that actually pay you money to say your time is worth "X". I plan on doing this in my spare time. By definition, it is not worth money. Besides, I am never more happy than when I am wrenching on something or constructing something. If I bought a certified airplane, I wouldn't be able to even change the oil. That ain't me.
     
  17. Apr 4, 2019 #17

    narfi

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    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-12A_CHG_1.pdf

    Which if you read points out a couple of relevant points in the FARs.

    FAR 43.3 g

    (g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.



    FAR 43 appendix A Paragraph C

    (c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

    (1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.

    (2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.

    (3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.

    (4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.

    (5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.

    (6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

    (7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with, the balloon manufacturers' instructions) not requiring load tape repair or replacement.

    (8) Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.

    (9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.

    (10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.

    (11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

    (12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates, cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as to interfere with proper air flow.

    (13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment, etc.

    (14) Replacing safety belts.

    (15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.

    (16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits.

    (17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.

    (18) Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is involved.

    (19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or disconnection of flight controls.

    (20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.

    (21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.

    (22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.

    (23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.

    (24) Replacing and servicing batteries.

    (25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with the balloon manufacturer's instructions.

    (26) Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.

    (27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for quick removal and installation.

    (28) The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part of the aircraft type certificiate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of the existing tank filler opening.

    (29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.

    (30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:
    (i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under §147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under §21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and

    (ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance program approved as part of the aircraft's type design or supplemental type design.

    (31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can still do anything more complex than that provided its done under the supervision of an appropriately rated mechanic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  18. Apr 4, 2019 #18

    rv6ejguy

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    My business for the last 24 years has been designing, manufacturing, selling and supporting aircraft EFI systems. We've sold nearly 900 of these for auto conversions in aircraft worldwide and another 1100 for aviation engines like Lycoming, Continental, Rotax and Jabiru.

    I've helped many of my customers solve a multitude of issues with both types of engines. Having been down the auto conversion route twice myself with 4 and 6 cylinder Subarus and helping all these folks, I can say that you need a serious background in engines, welding, machining and fabrication to have a hope of pulling this off successfully. Even then, many have failed and gone back to a traditional aircraft engine after years of frustration and failures. This is much harder to do than it looks at first glance.

    Most who've been successful, have been engineers, machinists and mechanics. If you're not one of those, I can almost 100% assure you that you won't be able to make this work reliably and safely in any reasonable time span.

    Build a plane so you can work on it yourself if that's your goal but don't attempt to roll your own auto conversion. Just trying to save you time, money and grief, based on my experiences.
     
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  19. Apr 4, 2019 #19

    blane.c

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    You could use the engine to power a generator. Then use the electricity to power something like this.

     
  20. Apr 4, 2019 #20

    Toobuilder

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    No, he meant a used aircraft engine. A well cared for used aircraft engine will provide years of faithful service for a fraction of the cost of new and is very likely to come in at less cost than a home brewed auto conversion.

    And once hung on the nose of an E-AB aircraft, you are free to maintain, modify or overhaul that formerly certified aircraft engine to your hearts content. As the manufacturer, you determine the timeframe and the inspection criteria for overhaul.
     

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