Raptor Composite Aircraft

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BJC

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Saw that 3" of prop clearance and thought .... sure hope that's a really smooth runway you're taking off and landing from, because the sidewall flex in the tires alone will bury those prop tips into the pavement. Ugh. ... but hey "I'm ok with that"
That problem will be self-correcting after the professional pilots have left.


BJC
 
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anvegger

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From personal experience, his biggest problem now is to dispose his dream.
I would definitely agree with that and there are many things already that could be used and re-used and improved over time. The TDI Dieasel conversion itself is a huge . All the bits and pieces of this project is an outstanding material and can be presented as academic case study. From variety of subjects - but even this projects as is still in a good shape - out of 25 mistakes (believe it or not even 100500 more) this elephant could be and should be eaten one bite at a time

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anvegger

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No guarantee pumping in more money will result in the project being completed. Still have unproven airframe, engine, re-drive, performance claims, etc.
How about if we compare SpaceX with Soyuz today - same story - twenty years ago it was ridiculous, two years ago it could not be possible - today is a reality and exactly the same unproven design : airframe engine etc etc

No guarantee pumping in more money
And yes - money makes our world goes around - remember? will see later what the money can buy
 
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wktaylor

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When my dad was trying to complete his Thorp T-18... every day seemed to present surprises... and something new that needed to get done or some job that befuddled him.

I remember John Thorp gave dad 2-pieces of wisdom he learned to live with... paraphrased from my 1960s memories...

"You can't build it in one day. Go home and get a good night's rest... so You can start fresh tomorrow."

"You are 80% done! Great! Only 50% more-to-go!

PS: I love the one-bite-at-a-time cartoon-wisdom!
 

anvegger

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ScaleBirdsScott

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I don't think the project is dead but it's in trying times and the design itself is far from production-ready. It will need perseverance if its gonna continue tho. If my experience with building a proof of concept aircraft design is any indication, the first article makes you want to throw it all in the trash every day and start clean. If anything I can't understand a mindset that looks at that first article and thinks "oh this is basically ready to go" instead of "That's gotta get redone, that's gotta get replaced, whoever designed this should never touch CAD again *cough cough*"

The problems I'm seeing are worth being frustrated over but these don't seem like dealbreakers. They're a few weeks of cursing, pinched fingers, wasted money, and realizing how much you want to fix next time. That's just part of the process.
 

BJC

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How about if we compare SpaceX with Soyuz today - same story - twenty years ago it was ridiculous, two years ago it could not be possible - today is a reality and exactly the same unproven design : airframe engine etc etc
I’ll just make a wild guess that SpaceX staffing includes experienced engineers, scientists, QC specialists, manufacturing experts, financial experts, etc.


BJC
 

wktaylor

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BTW... some hard lessons learned from developing scale models to test a full-scale aircraft concept.

Unless it is accurate to high % degree... performance, structures, inertia, loadings, mechanical/electrical systems, engines fuel system LDG... etc etc etc… the 'model' is of relatively low predictive-value... the real problems arise in real-world design work and then assembly and then test.
 
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BJC

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The problems I'm seeing are worth being frustrated over but these don't seem like dealbreakers.
The problems are clear indications of a naive designer who doesn’t know where his expertise begins and ends. Add to that a reluctance to ask for or accept critical input, and you end up with a project like Raptor.


BJC
 

anvegger

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I’ll just make a wild guess that SpaceX staffing includes experienced engineers, scientists, QC specialists, manufacturing experts, financial experts, etc.
Not really : Mostly fresh from the school students



 

canardlover

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Do you really want to get this entertainment finished? - I really doubt - Lots of materials already useful for many people around the world And Great job By Jeff Kerlo has to be awarded and demonstrated
Thank you Andrey, but bear in mind I only was I evolved in tooling development and producing the Composite airframe per my good friend Mark Bettosini's laminate schedules. I did however,through the test model exercise, take a design that would not fly( initially not at all) well and corrected many aero problems to enable it to fly pretty well. But again, I say, I was only able to put 3-4 flights on the model. The main point I am trying to put out here is that I had nothing to do with systems design or implementation and thus bear no responsibility in either their success or failure. As can be seen they,primarily, have been the Achilles Heel in this quest to take the prototype into the air. I was pleased when Mark Z,Elliot,and Justin commented very positively on the overall Composite execution of the airframe, some consolation for the implication on this forum by some throwing me under the bus and suggesting I am partly responsable for the issues herein. I am ,like many of you,hoping for a successful outcome at some level for my own personal reasons and satisfaction. Would hate to think my involvement was a total waste of precious lifetime and talent. Many of these issues could have been prevented but hopefully can be overcome through application of solid experience and sound practice. And, as Marc Z points out, carried out with total understanding and appreciation of the necessity to insure at the highest level the safety of the test pilot,whoever that may be. I,as well, want to see it fly and feel with significant remedial effort the program can be made far more successful.
 

wktaylor

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BJC... Take a hard look at the crowd/hoards of SpaceX employees often shown witnessing the launches. The rowdy 'young guys' are 'forward'... the old gray-haired guys... laid-off, retired or otherwise with deep NASA and space industry experience... hover in the background... been-there, done-that. THEY brought foundational launch and spaceflight knowledge forward, with the wisdom of experience, to get SpaceX on the fast-track. Credit to the young guys for not letting experience get in the way of new ideas/ways!

******
"Experience is a cruel teacher. First she gives you the test; then she teaches you the lesson.” – often cited version of Vern Law’s quote

"The difference between school and real-life is simple. In school You learn the lesson; then take the test. In real-life, You take the test then learn the lesson.” -- version of Vern Law’s quote

"Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn." --C.S. Lewis

"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." --Oscar Wilde, Anglo-Irish writer

"Learning from experience is a faculty almost never practiced." --Barbara Tuchman, historian and writer

"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." --Ansel Adams, American photographer and environmentalist

"Experience is not what happens to a man; it is what a man does with what happens to him." -- Aldous Huxley, British writer

"Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing." -- Oscar Wilde, writer

"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.” --Randy Pausch

"Deep experience is never peaceful.” --Henry James, writer

"Experience is never limited, and it is never complete.” --Henry James, writer
 

anvegger

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I was pleased when Mark Z,Elliot,and Justin commented very positively on the overall Composite execution of the airframe,
Dear canardlover - wanted or not this project is your baby as well. And I understand your position like no-one else and feel really sorry for that aggravation in the air. This is your baby and it has some of your hear soul and body . Without any doubt - My real point is that you and canardlover Junior deserve lots of complements and more attention to your outstanding work and your valuable input but we don't hear it much from you
 

BJC

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Take a hard look at the crowd/hoards of SpaceX employees often shown witnessing the launches. The rowdy 'young guys' are 'forward'... the old gray-haired guys... laid-off, retired or otherwise with deep NASA and space industry experience... hover in the background... been-there, done-that. THEY brought foundational launch and spaceflight knowledge forward, with the wisdom of experience, to get SpaceX on the fast-track. Credit to the young guys for not letting experience get in the way of new ideas/ways!
Not arguing at all, but I would caution people not to confuse age or longevity with experience.


BJC
 

bmcj

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his biggest problem now is to dispose his dream
He could take a page from the Synergy book.... make big claims, discount other’s suggestions and criticisms, drop out of sight, keep a low profile, don’t publish or publicize, and stop updating the website. Synergy may be dead or may be alive and thriving, but does anyone really know? (That is a rhetorical question, not meant to start a Synergy discussion. If we want to discuss Synergy, it should be done in the old Synergy thread or in a new thread, not here.)
 

BBerson

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Musk's chosen title is Founder and Chief Engineer. His newest design fourth prototype blew up recently. But he has prototype 5 and six in production.
 

TFF

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Quitting pretty much means it was a waisted time sink for everyone. Bad flying airplane is one thing. Quitting is wrong. He is focused too much on the act of getting it over. If he needs new ideas, he needs to find someone who can supply them. He just doesn’t want to fix them because I think he knows it’s short term.
 
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