experiamental fighter jet style aircraft

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by T-51ls1, Dec 7, 2012.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Dec 7, 2012 #21

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    939
    Location:
    Evansville, Indiana
    Plus a few thousand hours of time in complex high-end aerobatic aircraft including jets like the L-39 etc. A private pilot certificate is simply a "license to learn" and nothing more.



    I never said you were stupid but rather that you don't know much about the subject. There is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. You're ignorant, not stupid. Ignorance can be corrected if the person is willing to move forward. Stupidity is the unwillingness to change their mind or the tendency to get hostile when someone tries to teach them.

    Then you don't fully understand the complexity of them. That should scare you. One of my first flights was given to me by a world class test pilot who I later asked about what it was like to fly things like the X-15. He told me that you should never hire a test pilot who says they are not afraid. "That usually means they are crazy, stupid, lying or oblivious. None of those is something you want in a person with their hands on the controls".

    If one wishes to split hairs but in common vernacular, supersonic is anything beyond 1.0 Mach. The point is that wing design gets exceptionally complicated whenever you get anywhere near transonic. Once you get into the transonic range, that's where sweep starts to be useful.
     
  2. Dec 7, 2012 #22

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    939
    Location:
    Evansville, Indiana
    Merry Christmas or happy Hannukah as the case may be to you too. :)
     
  3. Dec 7, 2012 #23
    We needed to win that young man over ... we all have dreams .. some of mine are completely stupid and childish .. yet .. they are dreams regardless ..

    If he got his foot one the first step and got up there between the clouds ... he'll give everything much more thought ... and he'll get on the correct path ... I hoped all of us did help him to stay within and not to push him a way ..

    If I ever said anything that sounded negative to anyone .. then I apologize ... I only mean good to everyone ...
     
  4. Dec 7, 2012 #24

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    939
    Location:
    Evansville, Indiana
    He's a troll. Nothing more, nothing less. I do say that we leave the thread up because it would be potentially useful to anyone with a similar goal because of the responses he received from Mylo, Dana, Karolina, Matt, BMCJ and myself (sorry if I missed anyone).
     
  5. Dec 7, 2012 #25

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    13,075
    Likes Received:
    5,006
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    T-51ls1 did say that this is a distant future project after A&P school and engineering school, so he will have plenty of time to start, modify, redesign, and refine. No doubt the final product will be far different than the initial concept, so no need to bust his chops over what he has not yet learned... he has already acknowledged that.

    T-51ls1... as far as subsonic, transonic and supersonic is concerned, some books may have different interpretations.

    Subsonic is clearly where the plane is below the local speed of sound and compressibility effects.

    Transonic is where the aircraft is subsonic, but some of the airflow around the aircraft has local areas that are accelerated beyond the speed of sound by virtue of having to take a longer path around the structure.
    The onset of transonic speed is dependent on the shape of the plane, so will be different for different planes.

    Supersonic is where the aircraft is travelling at or above the speed of sound (Mach 1+).

    I can see where some might try to define supersonic as beginning somewhere above the speed of sound because at lower supersonic speeds the airflow behind the shockwave can be subsonic even though the plane is supersonic. This definition is incorrect... even though the air is slowed to subsonic as it passes through the shockwave, the aircraft is still travelling above Mach 1, so it is technically supersonic.

    T-51ls1... do you have a name we can call you by?


    EDIT: Oh wow! There's been a lot said since post #13 which was the last post made when I started this reply.
     
    Topaz likes this.
  6. Dec 7, 2012 #26

    Detego

    Detego

    Detego

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    105
    Location:
    North America


    Hopefully the young man understands all those helpful insights and accredited design knowledge.







    "Hey, who put the cart at the wrong end of the horse? At least there's less shoveling to do."
     
    Head in the clouds and Himat like this.
  7. Dec 8, 2012 #27

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,963
    Likes Received:
    5,576
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    I disagree. We've seen new members like T-51ls1 fairly often over the years. The desire for a "personal jet fighter" is strong in young men - lord knows I went through that phase myself. Young men like speed and thrills, and the details of how to get there are somewhat lost in the wash of testosterone.

    I agree with Mylohaba that we needed to win that young man over. He wasn't making it easy - his type tends to "know I'm right" when it's blindingly obvious to everyone else that they've only a cursory knowledge of aircraft and aircraft design - and I'm not sure he would've listened, but I don't like seeing him shut down quite so harshly. Like many others here, I place a value on directness and have been harsh myself sometimes (have gotten into some pretty heated discussions here in years past), but have learned over the years that sometimes a more gentle, diplomatic hand gets everyone where they want (or need) to go than being flat-out, in-your-face, direct. Those lessons cost me quite a bit, in various quarters.

    The goal here should be to encourage and educate. I'm not saying "encourage someone to do something stupid", or "waste time doing something impossible," but to encourage them to explore their ideas further, in more realistic detail. Usually that's all that's necessary to bring them down to earth. Sometimes it doesn't work, but those cases were beyond help anyway, IMHO.
     
    StarJar, LBarron, BBerson and 4 others like this.
  8. Dec 8, 2012 #28

    Apollo

    Apollo

    Apollo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    197
    Location:
    Southern California, USA
    I also disagree. He's a young kid with a dream. He was excited about his project and wanted some advice. His ignorance would have been cured by A&P school, pilot training and an engineering degree. He's just starting out and wanted to hang out with like minded folks. Your comments were pretty harsh, Steve. He's a long way from building his dream - plenty of time to indoctrinate him on the need for safety.

    I'll grant he was a little defensive and maybe even arrogant. That's not uncommon with the millennial generation (which tends to be over-confident in their abilities). But if HBA and other organizations can't encourage and educate young folks like that, then general aviation has no future.

    EDIT: When I was a teenager designing airplanes, I would have given anything to have a resource like HBA. But I didn't know anything then and some of my questions might have reflected that ignorance. I'd like to think that HBA members could mentor such kids rather than beat them up with their superior knowledge and experience. Let's not push away the next generation of pilots, designers and builders.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  9. Dec 8, 2012 #29

    skeeter_ca

    skeeter_ca

    skeeter_ca

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,027
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    Yucaipa, Ca
    I'm not an A&P. I'm not an aeronautical engineer. I'm a low time pilot that hasn't flown in years. I'm 51 years old. I'm a builder just getting started on my dream plane. 30 years ago i was thinking just like him. What young man hasn't dreamed of designing and building a jet aircraft to soar away into the sky. Today i dream of building and flying a low and slow amphibian. Nothing fancy. No 350mph VNE. No jet engines. No aerobatics. Dreams don't die with age they just change when you realize what you can and cannot achieve. Help the young man by giving him direction not by pushing him back. I have seen these questions time and time again. And amazingly the answers also. They usually always end up like this thread. The OP going away mad and a few members feeling like they did the kid a favor. Sad indeed. How are the young dreamers going to achieve anything if they are always told they can't do this or they can't do that by the very people attempting to do the same. As a few of you have posted that you where once in his shoes. Remember what it would have been like to be crush by people you admired for there acomplishments.

    skeeter
     
  10. Dec 8, 2012 #30

    TinBender

    TinBender

    TinBender

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC, USA
    Ahh, but you can type, spell, and punctuate. Probably could when you were 20, too.

    I was a 20 year old aircraft mechanic once... I knew just enough to be dangerous. 15 years later... still pretty dangerous.

    T-51, just start reading. The above mentioned book by Raymer is excellent. Then get 'Stress Without Tears.' You will have a better base for discussion. I have a year yet to go on my engineering degree, and have yet to make a sketch of my 'Baby' beyond a general configuration doodle; there is so much to learn that affects everything else, I don't want to fall into mindlessly committing to an impossible dream.
     
    SVSUSteve likes this.
  11. Dec 8, 2012 #31

    Radicaldude1234

    Radicaldude1234

    Radicaldude1234

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Front Range, Colorado
    Just a quick off-topic aside about the inability of young people these days to spell. Lest you think that I'm talking down to the kids, at 26 I'm more or less one of these "punks". While certainly not defending the intelligence of my generation, I think some of the blame regarding grammar can be cast upon public education.

    You see, in the late 80s and 90s, public schools changed from the traditional phonics model, which I'm sure our more "experienced" members are more than familiar with, to the whole language model. The latter which can be most simply described as memorizing whole words, not unlike learning to how read Chinese or Egyptian Hieroglyphics (though, hell, even Chinese has a limited phonics).

    Now although it can be argued (though certainly not by me) that this approach can effectively teach people how to read, write and spell, what ultimately doom us was that the decision was made to go back to phonics after a decade of trying to adopt whole language and seeing ever declining standardized test scores. So there we were as kids in the mid 90s, with our pogs (remember those?) and family safe Will Smith rap, learning how to spell from teachers who had just been forced to teach phonics after a decade of not doing so or had never done so to begin with. Mistakes were bound to be made...

    Interestingly enough, this fiasco also coincided with the rise of Instant Messaging, Texting, the Internet, and the resulting proliferation of "textspeak". With such a huge increase in written communication (I just checked, I've sent out 250 texts in the last 10 days; I'm sure my peers send out many times more), spelling, punctuation and grammar fall to wayside. I'm sure little Timmy's not worried about the difference between their, they're, there as he's writing that text whilst navigating through rush hour traffic.

    So there you have it, my excuse for my generation's lack of spelling ability. Likely, this deficiency in our youth will gradually diminish as phonics catches back on again. But alas, it's too late for my cohort! Like crippling college debt, the inability to find a job, and an unwillingness out of our parent's house, bad spelling will likely haunt us for many years to come...




    To T51: Don't give up! Its fine to be arrogantly stupid as long as you learn from it and it doesn't lead to any lasting damage. Hell, it comes with the territory of being young, along with being able to party hard without getting hangovers and eating whatever you want without getting fat. Plenty of people have attained the dream of owning and flying jet fighters, or something closely resembling. The Hanchette brothers were in the furniture business before they got into making the Viperjet; Darryl Greenmayer put together a F-104 Starfighter from surplus parts and set records with the thing; John Monnett of Sonex Aircraft and his SubSonex Jet; the list goes on.

    The most important thing in aviation, though, is never stop learning. The congregation of knowledge is why this site is so great, coupled with the fact that people will give you their honest opinion about things you post. Some might be a tad ornery while doing so, but for the most part I've found the same friendliness around here that I see when I go flying at the local airport.

    To Others: "A mind changed against its will, is of the same opinion still"
     
  12. Dec 8, 2012 #32

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    SVSUSteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,890
    Likes Received:
    939
    Location:
    Evansville, Indiana
    That's what you get when you teach a generation that they all will win or grow up to be astronauts instead of focusing on weeding out the ones who will be slinging french fries for a living and using resources where they are most likely to yield benefit.

    I would think that being honest is better than coddling someone who is resistant to learning. I wasn't trying to beat anyone up.

    Been there more times than I like to admit if by "crushed" you mean "not coddled". I had competent and tough teachers who held me to the same standard they were held to. I got my dreams torn apart, trampled upon and sometimes ridiculed by those I respect. It did not cause me to become hostile, rude or indignant. It works quite well in training highly competent professionals from engineers to astronauts, surgeons to scientists, elite soldiers to senior executives, paramedics to pilots. Why should the homebuilt community be any different? If we wish to pursue the actions of that entail great risk, we should expect to have our ideas torn apart and questioned harshly. We owe that to each other because instead of nurturing

    I am a big believer in the Kranz dictum that was promulgated after the Apollo 1 fire. Anyone who dares to leave the ground in an aircraft or spacecraft, let alone dares to design and build their own aircraft, should have it hanging in their office. That is the reason why I have "tough and competent" printed on a label across the top of the computer I sit typing this upon. The full Dictum is as follows:

    "Spaceflight will never tolerate carelessness, incapacity, and neglect. Somewhere, somehow, we screwed up. It could have been in design, build, or test. Whatever it was, we should have caught it. We were too gung-ho about the schedule and we locked out all of the problems we saw each day in our work. Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did. From this day forward, Flight Control will be known by two words: 'Tough' and 'Competent.' Tough means we are forever accountable for what we do or what we fail to do. We will never again compromise our responsibilities. Every time we walk into Mission Control we will know what we stand for. Competent means we will never take anything for granted. We will never be found short in our knowledge and in our skills. Mission Control will be perfect. When you leave this meeting today you will go to your office and the first thing you will do there is to write 'Tough and Competent' on your blackboards. It will never be erased. Each day when you enter the room these words will remind you of the price paid by Grissom, White, and Chaffee. These words are the price of admission to the ranks of Mission Control."

    That's the key point here. Citing the educational model you were taught under, the rise of texting and instant messaging or any other excuse is only valid if we choose to view them as acceptable and that is the major problem here. If you want to be taken seriously by professionals, you learn to speak, write and think like one.

    I'm not much older than these punks. I'm 31 and technically a product of public education. The difference was that I had people around me (my family and the adults I spent time around with when outside of school; I spent most of my free time at the library, the airport or the local VFW hall talking to the veterans because of my interest in history) who did not tolerate stupidity or assume that my "emotional well-being" was more important than producing a functional, healthy and well-educated adult at the end of the process.

    But at the same time we must not dilute it to the point of being less than what we have worked hard to create.

    If you're not willing to listen to reason-even if delivered in a blunt tone- then there is no hope for you in anything scientifically based.
     
    bradyaero and Matt G. like this.
  13. Dec 8, 2012 #33

    Radicaldude1234

    Radicaldude1234

    Radicaldude1234

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Front Range, Colorado
    And we in the scientific and engineering communities frequently forget how to communicate, teach, and most importantly, how to inspire. When the focus is analysis, it's all too easy to focus on the flaws. The truth may be on your side, but is that really justification to beat people over the head with it? And the gall to demand that people thank us after we do it! Is it any wonder our sport is dying?

    There is a huge difference between the homebuilt community and where the professionals that you cite hail from, some of whom I've talked to are the nicest, humblest people I've ever met. Even then, those guys are a bunch of highly trained and motivated professionals whose intelligence is in the top hundredth of the 1%. And even they screwed up from time to time!

    Although we build potentially dangerous contraptions, you are not Gene Kranz, I am clearly not von Braun (just ask the NAR guy who certified my rocket, that was an interestingly exciting experience...and not in a good way), and we are not NASA building the Saturn V. Like what the EAA aspires to be, we here at HBA are, at best, a school house on aircraft design.

    Like it or not, we are ambassadors of the aerospace industry to the general public. We are not the guards of the secluded bastion of aviation, nor are we the self appointed defenders of the one true faith of aerodynamics. To improve things we must let people in, not keep them out. To ensure quality, we must build them up and instill in them what is important. If we insist on screening out all those we find unacceptable, eventually we will have an empty, rotting, and crumbling house that everyone wonders why it hasn't been demolished yet.

    This "Failure is not an option" stuff is great when applied to on-the-spot execution, but we learn the most when we fall. Our job, as those with the knowledge and experience, is to make sure that these failures happen when the consequences are benign and that maximum learning results from them.

    I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but that seems like a pretty negative attitude to be directing at someone you just met online...

    Let's see, for those not keeping count: In the space of 25 posts, we managed to attack the man's maturity, intelligence, and worst of all, his dream. We did all that to a guy whose first post was to ask for help, admitted he didn't know it all and how he was going remedy that, which we subsequently also ridiculed. All because he had a pretty ambitious dream, was somewhat misinformed, and couldn't spell that well. For all we know, he could have been typing from his phone for the latter. I don't know about maturity and intelligence, but attacking a man's hopes and aspirations by all but calling them stupid is, quite frankly, a pretty messed up thing to do to another human being...

    At this point, I think some self examination is in order on our part as a community. If you hate the kids, why do you come on here where they will post stuff like this? If you are trying to do a public service by educating the uninformed, why do you drive them away from your viewpoints with a toxic attitude? Are we confusing our favored opinions with facts? Because we are scaring away the next generation of builders, and they can't all be a bunch of self-absorbed, spoiled kids.

    I think criticism is best leveled whilst looking at yourself in the proverbial mirror. Judge yourself before you judge others. When I do it, I find that I am a much bigger prick than I usually consider myself to be.

    Bottom line, I am not trying to absolve the transgressions of any kid who comes on here claiming to have the latest and greatest idea. Rather, I am questioning whether the typical response to this is helping at all. I'm not saying that we should be a bunch of yes men, but for God's sake, respect the enthusiasm even if you don't respect the idea, design, or attitude. If the exchange of ideas is what the goal is, "your's is stupid" isn't a good way to lead to it...

    I realize this post is rather touchy-feely, but hey, aviation is just as much as about the people in it as the things they sit in to fly with.
     
    T-51ls1, rv6ejguy, BBerson and 2 others like this.
  14. Dec 9, 2012 #34

    Apollo

    Apollo

    Apollo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2010
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    197
    Location:
    Southern California, USA
    Engineers and scientists are reputed to be somewhat lacking in social skills, precisely because of their "blunt truths". T-51 appeared immature for his age, but no less so than some of the older respondents. I think others have summed up the unintended "meaness" of your comments. But let me try another tact: The next time some uniformed nooby asks a sincere question, let's ask ourselves: What would Orion say?

    I think we all know the answer. Orion would have treated that young man with respect, even as he corrected the OPs misinformed ideas. And in the face of "resistance", Orion would have calmly and patiently explained what the young man needed to know, without sarcasm and debate challenges.

    Let's face it, this sport is dying a slow death. The pilot population has been declining for decades. The cost of flying continues to increase and hardly any young people show an interest in aviation these days. We can't afford to write off anyone so easily. We have to do a better job of recruiting dreamers like that poster, not for his sake, but for ours.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  15. Dec 9, 2012 #35

    deskpilot

    deskpilot

    deskpilot

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,100
    Likes Received:
    185
    Location:
    Morphett Vale, South Australia. Just south of Adel
  16. Dec 9, 2012 #36

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    overland park, kansas/ U.S.A
    I've had some people message me in private and they opened up my eye's to some things. I came back and read a lot of the thing's people have said after my lil rant with steve. One of the thing's someone said was to define what i really wanted it to do and design something based on that. That makes sense and i did plan to do something like that, just wasn't sure at first. I planned on going to another school after i get my A&P license to get my bachlers in engineering. I come from a line of high end engineer's and my brain works just like their's do. I do understand there is A LOT of risk when designing a aircraft from scratch. I realize i'll never see mach number's in flight but i hope to maybe get it faster then normal prop speeds. I do like that video link you posted desk pilot that was pretty neat for sure!
     
  17. Dec 9, 2012 #37

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Gold Coast, East Coast of Australia
    Welcome back Robert (I read your Profile and found your name there). You'll go far, most of us take a month or two to cross swords with Steve, and you got him worked out in less than a week :roll:.

    Yes, give us a list of the things you want your plane to do and what you want to be able to do with it i.e. speed, range, how many people and all that.

    Cheers,

    Alan
     
  18. Dec 9, 2012 #38

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    overland park, kansas/ U.S.A
    I would like it to curise at 300 knots and range i'm not to sure but i did plan to either build the wings as wet wings or have fuel cells in them and then a center fuel cell. My first thought was to do it with two people but that would make it considerably harder seeing as it would need a bigger wing span and tail section. I figure just one seat will allow me to build it with around a 15ish foot wing span and make it around 12 to 14ft long. At school i have access to a wind tunnel and i can use the shop for anything i want to build. As i go through the school i'm going to use the shop to learn as much as i can before going into engineer school. I'm already working on getting a CAD program to start playing with that and coming up with ideas and see what i like best and then trying to test it.
     
  19. Dec 9, 2012 #39

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,461
    Likes Received:
    2,515
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
  20. Dec 9, 2012 #40

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    T-51ls1

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    overland park, kansas/ U.S.A
    I really liked that artical thanks for posting it! Was some good insight into what happened with that plane and i'm glad someone has picked it up again.
     

Share This Page



arrow_white