Engine prices....

Discussion in '2-Stroke Aircaft Engines' started by MadProfessor8138, Aug 11, 2019.

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  1. Aug 11, 2019 #1

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

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    There's a project that I can pick up at an extremely reasonable price but I've been very reluctant to do it for the past year.
    To finish the project I will need to source a Rotax 503/gearbox/prop.
    I've been searching for the past year and haven't found anything that resembles being reasonably priced.
    I'm not willing to take on the project if the engine/gearbox/prop price is prohibitive.

    I noticed in a post from last year Armilite threw out some numbers for engines & gearboxes :
    20190811_105739.jpg
    In the past year,I havent found anything that is close to those prices.
    What I have found is Rotax 503 $3,500-$4,000....gearbox $1,200-$1,800.

    Where are you finding your deals Armilite?

    Kevin
     
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  2. Aug 12, 2019 #2

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    =============================
    eBay
    Barnstormers
    Home Built Airplanes
    Craigslist
    Facebook - Market Place is growing Fast.

    I use www.searchtempest.com that searches from my Zip Code, you just put in how many Miles you want to go. I usually use 500 mile Radius of me.

    A NEW B Gear Drive from CPS was around $1,250. I don't think Rotax is making the C Drive anymore, only the A & E Drive.

    B Drive.
    https://www.cps-parts.com/catalog/rtxpages/cps15-05342.php?clickkey=255331

    C Drive. Notice No Price!
    https://www.cps-parts.com/catalog/rtxpages/cps15-07812.php

    E Drive. From $1995.00 to $2248.00.
    https://www.cps-parts.com/catalog/rtxpages/cps15-07816.php

    ebay Used E Drive $1,400.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotax-582-...415211&hash=item2621951a90:g:Vt8AAOSwI2NdJiCr

    A well made New Provision 4 or Provision 8 Belt Reduction Drive is $900 or Offer on eBay.
    eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reduction-...886655?hash=item3d46ec26ff:g:WwgAAOSwnB1Zqrtg

    Barnstormers:
    BRAND NEW ROTAX 503 PACKAGE • $5,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • Brand new Rotax 503 dcdi dual carb, GPL starter B-Box or tall redrive, long J or 180 deg muffler • Contact Guy Boutin, Owner - located Lachine, QC Canada • Telephone: 514 634 6050 • Fax: 514 634 6050 • Posted August 8, 2019
    The GPL costs $650
    The B Drive costs $1200
    The Muffler Setup $650

    ROTAX 503 • $1,500 • FOR SALE • Rotax 503. No exhaust. Can include a used set of Bing carbs. Running good when removed. TT unknown. • Contact Kenny Watson, - located Blountville, TN United States • Telephone: 423-782-8302 • Posted August 7, 2019

    Facebook Market Place:
    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/674331656341621/

    New 277UL with Drive $1000
    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1162137790655913/

    582UL Engine
    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1056462521219562/

    Starfire Double
    https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/382232419303309/
    =============================================================

    1st, do you really need a 503 or just need/want (50hp)?

    2nd, do you really need a Dual Ignition 503?

    3rd, How much Weight do you have to play with for your Engine?

    4th, Can you Hang your Engine upside down on your Airframe for Non-provision engine?

    5th, What Engine, and HP was the Plane originally Designed for? Many of these Old Planes didn't have the most efficient Prop back then. So a New Prop with less hp may also work.

    A Skidoo 377/380/377UL built to a 380HO Spec's can easily make 52hp@6500rpm! If they had put on the 377UL 36mm Carbs vs the 377F/380F 30mm Carbs it would have made even more hp. So a 440F/447UL would also work to make 50+hp. A 2004 Skidoo 550F with 34mm Carbs Dynoed 70hp@7000rpm. Later 550F's only come with 30mm Carbs and rated 58hp@6800rpm.

    30mm Carb Flows 59.8cfm vs a 36mm Flows 86.2cfm. That's about 44% more Air = HP! The 377UL(35hp) used a Single 36mm Carb. With just Dual Carbs on a 377UL you pickup 2-3hp.

    Now that Search took all of 20 minutes to find! I don't think you looked that hard.
     
  3. Aug 12, 2019 #3

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

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    The project is a gyrobee gyrocopter so...taking your questions in order.

    1. I need 50-55hp.......a 503 fits the bill.
    2. I would feel better with dual ignition but it's not mandatory.
    3. 503 weight is about the max I would push it.
    4. The engine has to be mounted upright on the frame.
    5. Rotax 447-503 is the standard engine for this gyro....I need the 503 because of my weight.

    I had seen the 503 listed on Barnstormers and sent him a message but havent heard back from him.
    Rotaxs are becoming very hard to come by.....finding a complete setup now days is next to impossible....and by the time you piece one together from here and there $$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

    Kevin
     
  4. Aug 27, 2019 #4

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ===================================================
    1. A 380HO Dynoed 57.26hp@7000rpm, was making about 52hp@6500rpm, which is Lighter than a 503. Dual 30mm carbs, used 11.2cr, and a Good Tuned Pipe. Standard 377UL/377/380 used 9.6cr.

    2. All 377UL's were Single Ignition, 447UL were Dual Ignition. Both used 9.6cr. So make a 447HO if you want Dual Ignition. A 440F/447UL is a 377/380 Big Bored by Skidoo/Rotax. A 447HO should make 436cc/7cc= 62.2hp@6500rpm. Peak Flow says at 94% = 63hp@6500rpm.

    3. Both the 377UL/377/380 and 440F/447UL are Lighter than the 503UL.

    4. You can mount a 2 Stroke Up or down, Non-Provision Engines usually need hung upside down to attach a Belt Drive to the Bottom. Almost All 1993+ Skidoo Rotaxs have a Provision 8 Case. Gear Drives can be Hung either way for Provision engines.

    5. OK, 40-50hp. You Save even more Weight and Gain a little HP by using a Free Air. 7lbs on a 503 and they say Gain 2hp. A Stock 503UL with a R&D Aero Tuned Pipe made 62.3hp@6500rpm. So maybe 64hp in a Free Air Version.
    http://www.rotaxservices.com/dyno.html#7

    The 377/380/377UL is (62mm x 61mm) 368.4cc and the 440F/447UL is (67.5mm x 61mm) 436.7cc both use a (4) Bolt/Stud Bolt Pattern-based off a 94mm Bolt Circle(BC). The 503 is a (4) bolt/Stud Pattern-based off a 100mm BC. Minimum Sleeve Wall Thickness is 2mm. Rotax's use 8mm Cylinder Studs. I would have to go back an look for my data, but I think a 377/380 or 440/447 can be Big Bored with a Custom Sleeve & Piston to 76mm Max is what I figured. At the very least to 72mm to make a 503(72mm x 61mm) 496.9cc.


    $$$$ Spent depends on your Search Skills for parts and How much You can really do to Build it.

    A Skidoo 550F is (76mm x 61mm) 553.6cc. It has been Big bored to 81mm by LRD using a CAT 81mm Piston (81mm x 61mm) 628.9cc. The 277F/277UL, the 503F/503UL, and the 550F, all use the same (4) Bolt/Stud Bolt Pattern based on a 100mm BC. I figure 82mm is the largest you can go to. 550F Reed Fed Cylinders have been put on a 503F Case. A Stock 2004 550F dynoed 70hp@7000rpm with 34mm Carbs. The 550F uses 9.6cr. The US 550F has the Provision 8 Boss's on the Bottom Case, but Top Case has been Doctored. Could you Weld and Machine it to work, Yes. RMZ in Russia makes a Provision 8, 550F. LA Sleeve had a Big Bore Sleeve for a 503 to a 550.

    503UL on EBAY, C DRIVE NEW $1800, ELECTRIC START NEW $650, Exhaust new $650, MOTOR New PROBABLY $3500+.

    FRONT.JPG

    ROTAX 503UL EBAY.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  5. Sep 28, 2019 #5

    henryk

    henryk

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    file:///C:/Users/mbm/Downloads/Product+profile+(MZ202).pdf
    file:///C:/Users/mbm/Downloads/Product+profile+(MZ201).pdf

    -engine prices...? (delivery ?)
     
  6. Oct 23, 2019 #6

    henryk

    henryk

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  7. Oct 24, 2019 #7

    dino

    dino

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    Henryk, contrarotating props well suited for gyroplanes. Eliminates roll over tendency in 0g situations.
     
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  8. Oct 24, 2019 #8

    Dana

    Dana

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    Armilite, Kevin's looking for a real world engine he can buy now, not something he may be able to build / hot rod. Henryk, the engine you posted is interesting, yes, but 1/3 the horsepower he needs.
     
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  9. Oct 24, 2019 #9

    MadProfessor8138

    MadProfessor8138

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    You're correct Dana...
    I've just been looking around and getting a general price for engines and gearboxes....they are no where near the prices that Armilite posted.
    The general ballpark figures that I have found are :
    Rotax 503 : $3,500-$5,000
    C or E gearbox : $1,500-$2,500

    There have been several "deals" posted in the past few months with great prices but when you contact the seller you get the story that someone else has offered them another $1,000-$1,500 on top of the asking price.
    And yet,months later the engine is still for sale.
    Guys are posting low prices to draw attention but they wont actuall sell at that price.

    The original project that I wanted a Rotax 503 with gearbox is off the table now.

    But I will need a C or E box for my 670 going on my Stork this summer.....that is the priority item.
    And I will also need (2) Rotax 447-503 with gearboxes for a project that I'm designing.

    So,for the time being,I'm just watching the web and hope to eventually run across a good deal at the right time.

    Kevin
     
  10. Oct 24, 2019 #10

    Dana

    Dana

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    If you need a 447 but can live with 5HP less, consider a Cuyuna, they're a lot cheaper and despite their bad reputation they're really not bad engines... I had one on my Kolb and it always ran great. Another option is the Kawasaki 440C.
     
  11. Oct 24, 2019 #11

    henryk

    henryk

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    =for PPG,hoovercraft ,aeroboot...
    and for gasoline economy !!!
     
  12. Oct 26, 2019 #12

    litespeed

    litespeed

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    Extremely interesting development. The petrol engine ain't dead yet folks.

    A wildly divergent design and seems to work. Three power pulses per piston per revolution is amazing. That is a torque monster when at reasonable piston sizes. And built in reduction drive.

    Sort of makes the mind boggle what a 1000cc version would be like.

    And even better another Aussie design. We are a weird bunch, esp if you say it can not be done.
     
  13. Oct 26, 2019 #13

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    It has steel rollers riding on a steel flange, much like the Dynacam engine did. IIRC, one of the engineering critiques of the Dynacam was that the roller-flange system meant very high loads along a very fine line of a contact surface. The stresses and strain along this line would be nearly unmanageable and likely lead to losses, deformations and failures.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  14. Dec 2, 2019 #14

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ========================================
    Dana, his needs "To finish the project I will need to source a Rotax 503/Gearbox/Prop." So 50hp. Rotax hasn't made a Real World 50hp Engine for many Years! So he has to either Rebuild one, or have someone else do it for him if he can't, or find an Alternative 50hp Engine hopefully lighter than the 503UL per his statements. Your suggested "Kawasaki 440C, and the 440B, and the 440A which is what was used on most Planes, also hasn't been made in many Years! But they are 7 lbs lighter than a 503UL but their only 40hp, and NOBODY made an Ultralight Tuned Pipe for the Kawasaki's and since Weight is also an issue, the suggestions I made for a Rotax 377/380/380HO or 440/447 were Correct. The 380HO was a REAL WORLD Skidoo/Rotax made Engine, but is also discontinued now. Both Types 380/440 can be Built to make 50+hp@6500rpm and are Lighter than the 503UL. Any Good Snowmobile Shop that Builds Engines, can Machine the Heads for a Higher 380HO 11.2CR, Avg Cost is $80ea if you can't do it yourself! They can do Big Bores if you can't do it yourself. It's not Rocket Science. But each Modification Costs $$$! If you start out with a $100 Skidoo 380F, it's not that Expensive! Some Single Ignition Engines can be converted to Dual Ignition if you do your Homework. You can also send off your Cylinders & Case to have them PORTED for 10-15% more HP (380HO 57.26hp + 10% = 63hp), if you can't do it yourself, Avg Cost is $250. You can off the Parts to be Ceramic Coated if you can do it yourself. NOBODY is making a REAL WORLD Tuned Pipe today for any Ultralight or Kitplane 2 Stroke Engines. So your only choice is to make your Own or Modify an existing Sled Tuned Pipe which you can also do if you READ and do some Research on it, or find a NOS Tuned Pipe on eBay. The Tuned Pipe Software is Free to very Cheap. You/They can Install Bigger Carbs, again not Rocket Science. To make 50hp with a Tuned Pipe turning 6500rpm, 50hp x 7cc = 350cc! 503UL with a Muffler, 496.9cc/50hp= 9.938‬cc = 1hp by R&D's Dyno of the Stock 503UL it actually made 49.6hp@6500rpm, so 496.9cc/49.6hp = 10cc = 1hp! That's using 10.8cr with Rotax's Muffler.

    All (3) can be Turned 6500 to 6750rpm!
    Rotax 277 Big Bore (82mm x 66m) 348.6cc
    Rotax 377/380 = 368.4cc
    Rotax 440/447UL = 436cc

    Now he said he wanted a Gear Box. While I have heard of Adapting the A Gear Box to a Kawasaki 340/440, I have never seen one, and the A gearbox hasn't been made in 20 Years.

    380HO 36kw = 48hp! With a Good aftermarket Tuned Pipe, it made 57.26hp! Differances between the Standard 380(36hp) and 380HO(48hp) was the 9.6cr vs 11.2cr and Muffler vs a Tuned Pipe! Same 30mm Carbs, same rpm used.
    380HO 2004 AD 48HP.jpg
    380HO 2004 AD 48HP.jpg 380HO 57.26hp at 7000.jpg
     
  15. Dec 5, 2019 #15

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Standard 380 27 kw = 36.2 hp. Both were rated at 7000rpm in a Sled, Both 30mm Carbs. The 377UL used a single 36mm Carb.
    380HO 2004 AD 36HP.jpg
     

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