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BBerson

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Yeah, I think I got cataracts trying to read the first four pages of that contract.
I guess they have more lawyers than engineers.
 

Little Scrapper

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What do investors and pay day loan barons have in common? About everything.
Without investors we wouldn't have a economy, most people wouldn't even have a job. I flip homes and borrow all the time from individual investors, every 3 months. Most companies borrow for a reason. Paycheck employee type people have a hard time understanding it.
 
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12notes

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What do investors and pay day loan barons have in common? About everything.
Investors usually don't charge 460% annual interest.

Seriously, if your choices are a payday loan or borrowing from the mafia, the mafia is much cheaper. In case of default, broken legs heal quicker than credit ratings.
 

rbrochey

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I've spent to majority of my over 50 years working life working for myself, starting with nothing and building up to as many as 70 employees without the help of loans or investors...I'll be 70 next year and I still work and I still create my own income, despite disabilities of on sort or another... I was brought up to work hard and never borrow and never lend (Ben Franklin style) .. Our country is in debt to the Chinese... how healthy is that? If you want debt fine, I prefer to live without it.
 

Pops

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I've spent to majority of my over 50 years working life working for myself, starting with nothing and building up to as many as 70 employees without the help of loans or investors...I'll be 70 next year and I still work and I still create my own income, despite disabilities of on sort or another... I was brought up to work hard and never borrow and never lend (Ben Franklin style) .. Our country is in debt to the Chinese... how healthy is that? If you want debt fine, I prefer to live without it.
Same with me, never any home, car, airplane, etc loans. Also no credit cards. Children through college with no loans. Just lived below my means and saved for the big items. I was brought up the same way, never borrow and never lend. I do give away. I have had airplanes, cars given to me and I have given airplanes and cars away. My idea of success is not giving 10% and living on the 90%, its living on the 10% and giving the 90%.
 

rbrochey

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Sounds like we grew up about the same way in the same part of the country! My dad was 100 years old when he died in 1990 I grew up helping in the hardware store he owned in North Hills of Pittsburgh from the time I was about 8... learning how to thread pipe by hand... a lot of different things. He taught me to be totally self sufficient, don't borrow money to do something, fund it by hard work and being frugal. I do my own electrical (now solar) work, plumbing, building, fencing, painting, whatever! His moto was never hire anyone to do something you can learn to do yourself. How that may relate to this thread is don't use investors unless you know 150 % that you could get by without them. I bought my Piper Warrior from my doctor who got too far into debt and IRS problems... I just took over the payments, put in on leaseback to an FBO and got a check for renting it out every month then sold it after a few years for a nice profit. Never cost me anything. I think people need to be creative to avoid paying any kind of interest.
 

Pops

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Sounds like we grew up about the same way in the same part of the country! My dad was 100 years old when he died in 1990 I grew up helping in the hardware store he owned in North Hills of Pittsburgh from the time I was about 8... learning how to thread pipe by hand... a lot of different things. He taught me to be totally self sufficient, don't borrow money to do something, fund it by hard work and being frugal. I do my own electrical (now solar) work, plumbing, building, fencing, painting, whatever! His moto was never hire anyone to do something you can learn to do yourself. How that may relate to this thread is don't use investors unless you know 150 % that you could get by without them. I bought my Piper Warrior from my doctor who got too far into debt and IRS problems... I just took over the payments, put in on leaseback to an FBO and got a check for renting it out every month then sold it after a few years for a nice profit. Never cost me anything. I think people need to be creative to avoid paying any kind of interest.
We grew up the same in a lot of ways, and I agree 100%, even bought a Piper Cherokee and had it on a leaseback. Do you know anyone in the Pittsburgh mafia in the 1950's ? I used to be a member of the Pittsburgh ARC's RC club that had a field at Burgettstown south of Pittsburgh and flew with a black store owner on the north side that was in the state legislature at the time, maybe you know him. His store got burned down when MLK came into town and got the burning started in the 1960's.
 

cheapracer

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I've spent to majority of my over 50 years working life working for myself, starting with nothing and building up to as many as 70 employees without the help of loans or investors.
The majority bulk of good, and especially great businesses, have gotten there through outside financing of some type.

You are in a microscopic minority if you have been successful in business entirely on your own, most go broke, and very quickly, or worse, they live in a rut working 7 days a week just to pay rent and food, millions of businesses are stuck there.


.. Our country is in debt to the Chinese... how healthy is that? .
Here's the irony of your position, the Chinese Government massively supports business, eg; grants, loans, free factories, no taxes, super low interest rates, etc. and especially attitude. China is so successful because money is relatively easy to get for business.

And just the feeling of being wanted is fantastic, unlike my own Australian Government who seem to do everything possible to make you feel unwanted.
 

Pops

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The majority bulk of good, and especially great businesses, have gotten there through outside financing of some type.

You are in a microscopic minority if you have been successful in business entirely on your own, most go broke, and very quickly, or worse, they live in a rut working 7 days a week just to pay rent and food, millions of businesses are stuck there.




Here's the irony of your position, the Chinese Government massively supports business, eg; grants, loans, free factories, no taxes, super low interest rates, etc. and especially attitude. China is so successful because money is relatively easy to get for business.

And just the feeling of being wanted is fantastic, unlike my own Australian Government who seem to do everything possible to make you feel unwanted.
Unwanted, same for the state that I live in. And then they don't understand why the tax base is so small. I would never start another business in this state. Good place to live if you want to be corrupt.
 

rbrochey

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We grew up the same in a lot of ways, and I agree 100%, even bought a Piper Cherokee and had it on a leaseback. Do you know anyone in the Pittsburgh mafia in the 1950's ? I used to be a member of the Pittsburgh ARC's RC club that had a field at Burgettstown south of Pittsburgh and flew with a black store owner on the north side that was in the state legislature at the time, maybe you know him. His store got burned down when MLK came into town and got the burning started in the 1960's.
I do remember that... I also was taught to avoid the Hill District! Pittsburgh looks nice now I think, I used to see the airships pass over the hardware store... my dad also worked at Vulcan de-tinning on Neville Island WHILE he ran the hardware and took care of the 9 houses he built in the North Hills without a bank loan. There are two streets in North Hills named after him... why? because he built those roads by hand back in the 1930's when it was still a little bit vacant there he bought it up and also built a restaurant and gas station.... with NO investors... He bought an old stone church they tore down in Pittsburgh and hauled the stone to one of his lots and built a beautiful stone house... cheap at the time... he paid me a nickel a brick to clean the cement off some other buoilding he bought that was torn down... it's about working. Not sitting around a table with cell phones asking some guy for money. Build your dreams with your own seat equity.. just like a plane.
 

Pops

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I do remember that... I also was taught to avoid the Hill District! Pittsburgh looks nice now I think, I used to see the airships pass over the hardware store... my dad also worked at Vulcan de-tinning on Neville Island WHILE he ran the hardware and took care of the 9 houses he built in the North Hills without a bank loan. There are two streets in North Hills named after him... why? because he built those roads by hand back in the 1930's when it was still a little bit vacant there he bought it up and also built a restaurant and gas station.... with NO investors... He bought an old stone church they tore down in Pittsburgh and hauled the stone to one of his lots and built a beautiful stone house... cheap at the time... he paid me a nickel a brick to clean the cement off some other buoilding he bought that was torn down... it's about working. Not sitting around a table with cell phones asking some guy for money. Build your dreams with your own seat equity.. just like a plane.
If you would read the book on the history of Allegheny county and Pittsburgh you will see my wifes family name. Him( wife's ancestor) and his brother came over from Ireland and worked at Fort Pitt and all of the land back of the fort ( downtown Pittsburgh) was a land grant from William Penn to him. He didn't like the land because it was to close to the fort so he traded it for land up Sewickley creek and also owned what is now called Neville Island. Now there is a Boy Scout Camp at the location of the log house that was rebuilt and land where he lived up Sewickley creek. 5 generations back, my ancestor was a Chickasaw Indian scout for George Rogers Clark and was at Fort Pitt the same time as my wife's ancestor. They built boats to go down the Ohio river to capture a British Fort and Lord Hampton. Also one of my wife's ancestors built the first fire fighting wagon for Pittsburgh. All 3 of our children were born at Sewickly.

I moved to Pittsburgh to live with my parents when I was 15 years old and all of my father's friends and " business associates" was "Family", the reason I ask the question if you knew any of them.
Added ---- My father taught me to never go into debt and it was easy for him to make money when needed.
 
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ScaleBirdsScott

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There's a lot to be said for bootstrapping but those who advocate it from a position of success need to be aware of their survivorship bias, and also compare where they came up and how that relates to the modern context. Could someone do the same today, with the same starting point and reap the same reward?

It probably is possible in some cases but it is highly dependent on the goals. There is also something to be said for finding people willing to finance a venture that can quickly move from idea to market while the market is still viable.

No problem with playing the game with someone else's money, but you gotta do the math.

The physical, mental, and temporal toll of the long-road via bootstrapping also has to be factored. If you take 6-10 years to get to market working nights and weekends while funding everything with the surplus from the day job or selling trinkets on etsy, the product market may be long gone by the time you're ready; or someone has beaten to the punch. Or you're just too burnt out and tired from the schedule to care at all anymore, leading to big increase in failure. OR you'd have been better off with a completely different business that was far easier to get into action and could have easily made the surplus to fund the aircraft in half the time.

That's stuff I think about a lot lately.
 

Little Scrapper

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There's a lot to be said for bootstrapping but those who advocate it from a position of success need to be aware of their survivorship bias, and also compare where they came up and how that relates to the modern context. Could someone do the same today, with the same starting point and reap the same reward?

It probably is possible in some cases but it is highly dependent on the goals. There is also something to be said for finding people willing to finance a venture that can quickly move from idea to market while the market is still viable.

No problem with playing the game with someone else's money, but you gotta do the math.

The physical, mental, and temporal toll of the long-road via bootstrapping also has to be factored. If you take 6-10 years to get to market working nights and weekends while funding everything with the surplus from the day job or selling trinkets on etsy, the product market may be long gone by the time you're ready; or someone has beaten to the punch. Or you're just too burnt out and tired from the schedule to care at all anymore, leading to big increase in failure. OR you'd have been better off with a completely different business that was far easier to get into action and could have easily made the surplus to fund the aircraft in half the time.

That's stuff I think about a lot lately.
Exactly..

Many people just can't see past their own point of view. My business is 100% debt free. Brand New trucks, cash. Everything is debt free. All my inventory, debt free. Equipment. Debt free.

But I love borrowing. It makes sense from a business perspective, more than just internet chatter but actual numbers. As an example......

My business is separate from my investments. The last thing I want to do is pull money out of investmemts, that would be just stupid. So on a flip like the last one I found a guy to front $190k to buy a 1890's farmhouse. 3 month flip. He owns the house I set the deal. He makes 7% in 3 months and worse case scenario he owns a home for a great deal if things go south. It's all about risk assessment. Obviously I did the plumbing but I also keep what's left after the costs, including interest paid. It sold for over $320k. Sold it in under 3 days like we always do. Still, extremely difficult to make money but we do. It's very hard.

Borrowing is smart. I run a business, why would I possibly want to deal with that crap. It's easier to orchestrate it and move on to the next one. Investments are time stamped, borrowing makes the "time" part happen. It's just smart.

And the investor who made 7% in 90 days? Where else is he gonna do this with so little risk. He's just as important as an electrician, everyone has a role.

I realize some people claim to be a jack of all trades but this is real tradesman doing real work license and insurance and a real inspection where codes matter. Imagine if I threw out my refrigerator because it's cheaper to dig a hole in the ground and store food in a root cellar. It's not practical.

Borrowing is not only important in business we'd literally be a third world country without it.

Borrow smart. Buy value. Have a strategy. Use your noodle.
 
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rbrochey

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"Borrowing is not only important in business we'd literally be a third world country without it" disagree... it's why we ARE becoming a third world country. Countries happily become our investors.. it slows down our regime change antics... just look at the rising debt... worse than ever and if I were starting an aviation business and run it like our country manages money I'd be bankrupt pretty quick. China, for one, is buying up companies and land all over our country and probably doing it with the interest we're paying them for the currency they're lending us. But if you want to pay interest and sit around filling out loan docs, go for it.
 

Little Scrapper

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That's paranoia. We live in a awesome country with a ton of opportunity for people who are open minded, disciplined, and can lead. Making money is very hard, yes, it's supposed to be.

I was reading the other day how many people we have lifted out of poverty since 2000 and it's mind blowing. Poor in 2018 is not the same thing as poor in 1930.

So I disagree, I rely on numbers. Numbers point out there's no greater time to be alive than June 14 2018. But again, we live in a society where it's up to the individual.
 
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