What could be done to reinvent the Affordaplane to a more homogeneous project?

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Armilite

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The weight should be about the same, as the tubing to be used is 6060 T6 in quality and the dimensions are 50 x 50 x 2mm.

The whole fuselage is leaned on the Affordaplane and the construction of Daniel Dalby the designer of the Cubchel and the Cubchel was highly inspired by the Affordaplane too.

The main reason to change to the 6060 T6 alloy is the availability of that Alloy here in Europe.
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Yes, if Basic same 2' x 2" OD & Wall Thickness used basically all the same Weight. It's the Wall Thickness used 0.125" vs 0.062" that makes a difference. How much? There is at least one Size in between those two Wall Thickness. 6060 & 6063 is about Half the Strenght of 6061. I believe 6062 is a little stronger than 6061. 7075 is a lot stronger.
 

rotax618

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Unfortunately in many countries most alloy extrusion are made from “architectural” grade aluminium (6060, 6063) it is reasonably strong in drawn shapes ( which are mainly round tube) but too soft in extruded shapes and the range of drawn tube sizes is very limited.
The lack of suitable material severely limits design choices in many countries.
 

Tiger Tim

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Unfortunately in many countries most alloy extrusion are made from “architectural” grade aluminium (6060, 6063) it is reasonably strong in drawn shapes ( which are mainly round tube) but too soft in extruded shapes and the range of drawn tube sizes is very limited.
The lack of suitable material severely limits design choices in many countries.
What would you use for a ‘global’ type of design? Aluminum sheet?
 

rotax618

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You can buy imported alclad sheet from aviation metal suppliers at very high prices. People import Kits and there there are agents for most of the more common manufactured homebuilt kits. the reason there were no more Boorabee aircraft built was the purchase of the Australian aluminium industry by US companies and the ”rationalisation” that followed.
 

Armilite

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Unfortunately in many countries most alloy extrusion are made from “architectural” grade aluminium (6060, 6063) it is reasonably strong in drawn shapes ( which are mainly round tube) but too soft in extruded shapes and the range of drawn tube sizes is very limited.
The lack of suitable material severely limits design choices in many countries.
==========================

If you search hard enough in your own Country, you can usually find the materials you need. Most Metal Places deal in Steel & Aluminum. 6061, 6062, 7075, is the main materials to be used on a Plane. Most Business Buy Material in Bulk. Like You in Evans Head, Australia has both China & India not that far away. Containers come in 40ft, 20ft, 10ft, and Smaller. You can Ship just about anything, you might have to pay 3x what everybody else does, but you can do it. Finding a Place that will Cut it to Lenght Saves Space and Shipping.

Lazada, Philippines

Papua New Guinea

Indonesia

Singapore

Australia



 

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rotax618

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Yes there are plenty of aluminium suppliers - if you buy from China or India you need to buy a mill run of that size, not possible for a homebuilder. The only sizes of drawn tube you can get from the other local suppliers is in imperial telescopic sizes from 3/8”-1 1/8” x 0.42mm wt. all other are extrusion (with the exception of some heavy transport sections) are of architectural alloy - you can buy thicker sheet and plate in 6061t6 5083 some 7075.
I know, I have building flying machines for around 55years.
My aim with the Boorabee design was for a simple aeroplane that could be built cheaply from easily obtainable local materials - the main tube is 5”(127mm x 1.6mm) they were being made for the Australian Drifter manufacturers and could be sourced from them, they moved their manufacturing to China, Moyes imports the tubes from China for their Dragonfly, but they don’t sell tubes. I’ve been told that 6061t6 5” tubes longer than 12ft are even difficult to source in the US.
You get the idea - it’s not worth designing an aeroplane made of unobtanium.
 

Armilite

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Yes there are plenty of aluminium suppliers - if you buy from China or India you need to buy a mill run of that size, not possible for a homebuilder. The only sizes of drawn tube you can get from the other local suppliers is in imperial telescopic sizes from 3/8”-1 1/8” x 0.42mm wt. all other are extrusion (with the exception of some heavy transport sections) are of architectural alloy - you can buy thicker sheet and plate in 6061t6 5083 some 7075.
I know, I have building flying machines for around 55years.
My aim with the Boorabee design was for a simple aeroplane that could be built cheaply from easily obtainable local materials - the main tube is 5”(127mm x 1.6mm) they were being made for the Australian Drifter manufacturers and could be sourced from them, they moved their manufacturing to China, Moyes imports the tubes from China for their Dragonfly, but they don’t sell tubes. I’ve been told that 6061t6 5” tubes longer than 12ft are even difficult to source in the US.
You get the idea - it’s not worth designing an aeroplane made of unobtanium.
============================

Yes, many different Materials (Wood, Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, Aluminium, Steel, Epoxy's, Sail Cloth, etc., used to Build Planes are hard to get in many places around the World, but still obtainable if you want to Pay the Shipping Cost. YOU, pick the place where you choose to live, so your problems from them choices mean you have to deal with them Problems.

Frankly, not trying to be mean, but your Dream "with the Boorabee design was for a simple Aeroplane that could be built cheaply from easily obtainable local materials" same as someone making a still Heavy 1/2, O-200 making only 50hp is going to Sell well, isn't going to happen. You have about 8 BILLION PEOPLE in this World spread between about 220+ Countries to Sell to! 99.9% of these Airframe Manufactures are Lucky to Produce between 25 to 150 Airframes a year! Challenger, T-Bird Lines two of the oldest most popular Kitplanes & Ultralights, say 4000 Planes Sold in last 40 Years that Averages out to 100 Airframes a Year!

Just WHY you think you need to reinvent the Wheel/Airplane when we had 750+ different Airframes already made in the World, which we have dropped down to about 350 made today per Kitplane magazine, and I think it's lower than that. 95% of the Airframes made in the World were built fairly well. Marketing their Product is their biggest Hurdle to over come. From No Sign on their building to no Showroom, No Advertizing, Poor Atitudes & Service to Customers, etc! That means we have lost over 50% of the once made Airframes in the World. If you can't get or Find these materials in your own Country, which I gave you (3) different Aluminum Suppliers in a 15 min Search, and there were more. From those once made 750+ different Airframes in the World you have a lot of wrecked or Airframes just sitting in Garages that can be restored. The problem is, most people are just to lazy to do the research, Save up the money to Build their own Plane, or lack the Skills and Tools. That's Why, you have 1000's Plane projects sitting in garages/shops for 20+ years.

Let's say your Plane sells Retail for just $25,000 USD. Now I retired in March of 2017, and my Wife and I were making $154,500 that year. I went the last ten Years of Working to a lower Paying Job about a $45,000 Pay Cut, but I slept in my own bed every day, was Home every Day, and out of the Year I actually hardly Worked since I was on a Garrantee of a bout $100,000-$102,000. One of them years I only work 56 days and most were 7hr Work Days, and another 62 days. So even with Exspensive Shipping, it doesn't take many Planes to still make a Good Living. Indivuals can find others who want to Build a Plane and Share Shipping Chargers. Like I helped a guy recently that needed a Rotax 185 Piston in the UK. The Seller on eBay wouldn't send it to the UK. The Wife researched the Shipping Charge's took about 15 minutes from the (3) Services we have UPS, USPS, Federal Express, and Prices ranged from about $26 to $185. USPS had the lowest at $26 so that's how we shipped it. I believe it took about two weeks. I once checked about 3 years ago on 40ft and 20ft Continers from China to the USA, 40ft $5000 and 30ft $3000. They have smaller Containers. I recently checked Containers from Guamala to USA, and they were about 50% less, short Distanace.

5 Airframes x $25,000 = $125,000!
10 Airframes x $25,000 = $250,000!
15 Airframes x $25,000 = $375,000!
25 Airframes x $25,000 = $625,000!
50 Airframes x $25,000 = $1,250,000!
75 Airframes x $25,000 = $1,875,000!
100 Airframes x $25,000 = $2,500,000!
125 Airframes x $25,000 = $3,125,000!
150 Airframe x $25,000 = $3,750,000!

150 People
1000 People
10,000 People
100,000 People
1,000,000 People Million
1,000,000,000 People Billion
1,000,000,000,000 People Trillion

Example Shipping China to Los Angles. China to Australia would be Cheaper! Plane Freight $1,995 vs Ship Freight $875 is different. Even here in the USA Land Shipping is expensive.

You say, "I’ve been told that 6061 T6 5” OD tubes longer than 12ft are even difficult to source in the US. " What Plane uses a 12ft or longer 5" OD Tube? Can't Tubing be Sleeved and Epoxy Glued and Welded to make longer lengths? Could you make your own Carbon Fiber Tubing, yes! There are many 20ft Lathes in Scrap Yards, Old Industries, Colleges, that could be bought for pennies on dollar used. You could build your own out of Steel Tubing.

First Place I looked, 15 sec. Most Designers wouldn't pick that oddball 5" OD size to use in the first place. It's hard enough to just find the Standard Tube Sizes used like 3/4", 1.0", 1.25", 1.5", 1.75", used for Spars mainly 2.0", 2.25" 2.5". Instead of using a 5" OD Tube a Truss Beam made up from smaller parts would be smarter.

Online Metals.

5" OD x 0.125" Wall x 4.75" ID Aluminum Round Tube 6061-T6-Extruded 24ft.
$679.71 ea.

5" OD x 0.1875" Wall x 4.625" ID Aluminum Round Tube 6061-T6-Extruded 20ft.
$715.14 ea.

5" OD x 0.25" Wall x 4.5" ID Aluminum Round Tube 6061-T6-Extruded. 24ft.
$1053.25 ea.
 

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rotax618

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Many aircraft have used a 5” thin walled tube, Drifter Hummer, Dragonfly etc. I did not design the Boorabee to make money, I gave away the plans for free, and loaned the moulds for free, and gave builder support for free. There is an old adage “if you want to make a small fortune from aviation you have to start with a large fortune” .
People design their own aeroplane for many reasons - sometimes it is just the challenge, sometimes it is a perception that there isn’t a design that fulfils their requirements and sometimes it is for the enjoyment and education of the builder. If everybody used someone else's design we would still be flying the Wright flyer.
By the way the 5” tube is 0.0625” Wt. welding would not be a suitable method of joining it, a glued and riveted sleeve has been used to repair Drifters but adds weight and creates a stress concentration at the point of maximum bending.
 

Armilite

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In Most Cases, to Build the Airframe accounts for 50% of the Cost and the Motor used accounts for 50% + Profit Margin. It's the Designer/Builders Choices on these Materials and Engines used.

All Airplanes have an MTOW and should be Powered for that MTOW. A Good Power to Weight Ratio to Fly Well is 1kw per 10 kg. With MTOW of 450 lbs being the Low Side and 1300 lbs being the High side for Kitplanes. Part 103 MTOW is 450 lbs to 660 lbs.

450 lbs = 204.1166 kg / 10 kg = 20.41166 kw needed = 27.37249 hp needed to Fly Well!

660 lbs = 299.371 kg / 10 kg = 29.9371 kw needed = 40.14631 hp needed to Fly Well!

1300 lbs = 589.6701 kg / 10 kg = 58.96701 kw needed = 79.07606 hp need to Fly Well!

USA Part 103 has a Max Plane Weight of 254 lb + 30 lbs (GAS) + Pilot which Averages between 180 lbs - 235 lbs. 254+30+235 = 519 lbs = 235.4144 kg / 10 kg = 23.54144 kw needed = 31.56959 hp needed to Fly Well. 85% of the Part 103's ever built Flew on 26hp - 28hp with a Rotax 277UL. It's not about how little it can Fly on, but How Well it Flys with X Amount of hp. You can Over Power any Aircraft, but for most Planes, that means less Flying Time and less useful Load with more Costs.

Today, they try to talk people into using more hp like a 50hp with a BRS Exemption. Most BRS for a 600 lb MTOW cost $4000+ and 50hp Engines cost about Double what they really need.

PART 103 is not about Speed, it's about Flying Time on 5 Gallons of Gas.

Most Airplane Accidents 90% happen on Take Off and Landings where a BRS won't usually Save you.

Like a New Plane(Cool) coming out, with Designers choice, a 36hp Polini is 3 lbs from making USA Part 103, but add a $4000+ BRS makes it Legal. Using that [email protected] Engine, it won't have a very Long TBO!

How long do you think it can Fly on 5 Gallons with a Reserve? Remember also, that BRS added Weight 16+ lbs, so your Useful Load just went down. IF Plane at 254 lbs + BRS Exemption 24 lbs = 278 lbs Max. Plane at 257 lbs plus BRS now probably 257 lbs + 18 lbs = 275 lbs so still Legal. MTOW 600 lbs - 275 lbs = 325 lbs - 30 lbs (Gas) = 295 lbs for Pilot & Bags. MTOW of 600 lbs = 272.1554 kg / 10 kg = 27.21554 kw needed to Fly Well = 36.49664 hp to Fly Well. The Polini 250 244.3cc 55 lbs is [email protected] using a Tuned Pipe! What hp would these other Lighter 40-45 lb Singles make that use Mufflers like the Compact Radial MZ34 313cc, Hirth F33 313cc, the Simonini Mini 3, 270.6cc uses a Tuned Pipe making [email protected] Even the Rotax 277UL 268.8cc Fan Cooled with a Gear Drive was 65 lbs. The 277UL Free Air with a Belt Drive was Lighter, probably about 55 lbs.

Using 11.5cr, proper Size Carb to make 36hp x 7cc = 252cc for 6500rpm. A +/- 1.0cr = 1hp. So an Engine like the Hirth F33 which used 9.5cr you would deduct 2hp which it should still make around 42hp. You, as the Tuned Pipe Designer can use whatever Standards you want. You pick the rpm to use! Take the 313cc/36hp= 8.694cc. A 277 268.8cc/36hp= 7.466cc! A Dynoed 380HO, 368.4cc/57.26hp= 6.433cc used at 7000rpm! For 6500rpm 368.4cc/7cc= 52.628hp. Hence on the Dyno Sheet, it was making between [email protected] 368.4cc/52hp= 7.084cc. 368.4cc/53hp= 6.950cc. So 7cc is the Constant I would use. HP Gain isn't exactly the same at every say +250rpm Increment. IF, you have a Good Dyno Sheet with the numbers you can do an Average. Like the 277UL rated [email protected], Averaged +2.8hp per every +250rpm. I just overlaid a Window on this Photo at 6500rpm, there are 10 Marks between 40-60hp, so 50hp is at 5 Marks. The Overlaid Window hits at 4 marks below 60hp, so it was making [email protected] 368.4cc/52hp= 7.084cc to make 1hp. They were using the Stock 30mm Carbs, could you add some 34mm Carbs, do some Cylinder & Case Porting and have them Numbers Change, Yes!

313cc/7cc= 44.7hp

270.6cc/7cc= 38.6hp

268.8cc/7cc= 38.2hp

At one time there were 32+ different Brand Name Engines made for Snowmobiles which most made Singles alone from 100cc to 400cc. JLO & SACHS both made 14 different Singles.
 

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Armilite

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Many aircraft have used a 5” thin walled tube, Drifter Hummer, Dragonfly etc. I did not design the Boorabee to make money, I gave away the plans for free, and loaned the moulds for free, and gave builder support for free. There is an old adage “if you want to make a small fortune from aviation you have to start with a large fortune” .
People design their own aeroplane for many reasons - sometimes it is just the challenge, sometimes it is a perception that there isn’t a design that fulfils their requirements and sometimes it is for the enjoyment and education of the builder. If everybody used someone else's design we would still be flying the Wright flyer.
By the way the 5” tube is 0.0625” Wt. welding would not be a suitable method of joining it, a glued and riveted sleeve has been used to repair Drifters but adds weight and creates a stress concentration at the point of maximum bending.
============================

I seriously doubt out of 750+ Designs, many used a 5" OD Tube. Like you said, even hard to get in the USA.

So, did you Ship these Molds around the World? The Plans are probably really Worthless without the Molds, aren't they?

99.9% of the people even today don't Build their own Molds. But Technology is starting to make that a possibility with CNC 3D Printers. Most don't even rebuild their own Engine. I do commend you for giving builder support for free. If you can build the Molds from the Plans would help.

“If you want to make a small fortune from Aviation" you have to have a Sound Design, a Good Business Plan, the right Skills & Tools & Space, and do Good Marketing which is the Number 1 Failure of most Businesses. For most of these Tube & Fabric Airplanes the Tools needed Cost less than $5000. You can spend Thousands on Tools, or you can spend a reseanable amount. It's like the guy/gal that comes into the pool Hall with that Custom $2000 Pole Que, doesn't mean they can Play any better. A Good Machinist, Welder, Fabricator, Mechanic, can do about anything. In the USA, 75% of most Small Businesses Fail. I personally have visited many Ultralight & Kitplane Dealers, Kit Car Manufacturers, Motor Cycle Manufactures, etc. Like I said, at one time we had 750+ Airframe manufactures, now down to about 350, I think it's less, that's more than 50% that Failed. Hmm, 1971 there was 4 Billion People in the World, today 2021, 50 Years later we're at about 8 Billion. Most of these planes have been around since 1980 about 41 Years.

Some Failed from Law Suites, some Failed account Owners Split up or got Divorced (50% Divorce Rate in the USA), a few were probably just deemed Unsafe by Buyers so had Poor Sales, some Failed account Owners just got Lazy, or Old, but the most Failed account of Poor Marketing, which I would say 80% of the Airplane Manufactures!

Airframe manufacturers depend on these few today's 5-7 Engine Manufactures, so when Rotax who held 85% of the World's Small Engine market pulled out of the Small 2 Stroke Market for Planes that left a very Big Void! I can't think of (1) Airframe Manufacture out of 750+ who made or Sourced the Parts to make their own Engine. Rotax and these other Engine Companies don't make half of their parts, they Source them, Nuts & Bolts & Washers & Spark Plugs & Wires & Carbs & Bearings & Gaskets & Seals, Pistons & Rings, etc. There are Companys who make Cranks. Hot Rods in Des Moines 45 min from me makes Cranks for Sleds, ATVs, Jet Skies, Snowmobiles, etc. Snowmobile/Jet Ski Shops make Racing Heads, Cases, Cylinders, so some of these kitplane Dealers could too! A Rotax 582UL Cast Head cost $820, a Billet 582 Race Head Cost $400.

A 5” Tube that is 0.0625” would probably be Sleeved with a 2-3ft piece with the next Smaller Tube in the same Wall Thickness, so not much Weight added, and with these new Epoxy Glues would probably be good enough, but the joint could still also be Welded. Could you also add Rivets, Yes. I have seen 4" x 12" 1/4" Steel Plates just the Ends overlapped about 4" so 4"x4" Epoxy Glued and then put into a Hyd Machine that Pulls them till the break. The Epoxy Joint never broke, the Steel Plate tore apart every time.

Any Business to start takes some Money, just like picking a Sound Design and Engine is important, How you spend the money to get started is also very important. Again, most people are too lazy to research and make a Good Business Plan. For under $5000 you can get all the Tools you need to get started, much cheaper if you Buy used. Now you can go lease a building for thousands of dollars each month or look for some distressed Property. This place was about 4 Acres with a Large Morton Building on a Paved Road, next to a Caseys (Fuel/Food) which sold at a Sherriffs Sale for $1,497.00, soon was resold weeks later for $38,500 a $37,003 profit. Next Guy dumped about $60,000 + $38,500 = $98,500 into Fixing everything and then resold it for $239,000 - 98,500 = $140,500 Profit. Now could you take the $37,003 profit and run to invest in your Business, or Fix it up and resale it or Tear the House Down, have Space for a Grass Strip, and maybe add a Show Room Office later once you started making Airframes in the Morton building? The House could have also been Sold and Moved for maybe $10,000-$15,000, or just Fixed up and lived in. There is all kinds of Distressed property out there if you look. So Tools $5000, Building $1,497 = $6,497 some Cleanup of the building and you have the bones to get started.

Banks here usually want 20% Down on a business.

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What is required to get a business loan?
Credit scores, annual revenue, business plan and collateral are the four cornerstones of most business loan applications. But note that there are many other supporting documents you'll need to qualify for a business loan.

The average business loan interest rate ranges from 2.58% to 7.16% at Banks, according to the most recent data from the Federal Reserve.

$30,000 - 20% Down = $24,000 at 7.16% for 10 years = $280.64 Mo. Payment!

$40,000 - 20% Down = $32,000 at 7.16% for 10 years = 374.19 Mo. Payment!

$50,000 - 20% Down = $40,000 at 7.16% for 10 years = $467.74 Mo. Payment!

$60,000 - 20% Down = $48,000 at 7.16% for 10 years = $561.29 Mo. Payment!

$70,000 - 20% Down = $56,000 at 7.16% for 10 years = $654.83 Mo Payment!

So you can see if you Think and Plan and Spend your Money Wisely, you can startup a Kitplane Business with not too much money, probably $20,000 or less. Tools less than $5000, Building $1,497 = $6,497, plus some Inventory Materials, Engines to get started. Starting with the lower end Part 103 would be a good choice, and then Build on from there.

Ace Belt Drive shipped to the USA for $669.
Honda/Clone 420 $359
Engine upgrades for 35hp $600.
Engine Total $1,628

Retail Cost for an RMZ-250 [email protected] Single with a muffler $1000, [email protected] with a Tuned Pipe!


Airframe Material Costs can vary from $2000 to $4000. Materials to Build a complete Affordaplane range from $4000 to $8000 depending on the Engine used. You can be pretty sure if they Ask say $15,000 for their Airframe without an Engine, their Cost to Build it is at least 50% or more. $15,000 x 50% = $7,500. Everybody's Profit Margin is different. Everybody wants to be a Millionaire overnight. Complete Plane & Engine is 235 lbs and at $1.34 a Pound for Aluminium = $315 by Weight.

A Cast 582UL/670 Head is 2 lbs x $1.34 = $2.68, rotax $8.20! A Billet 521,580, 582, 583, 617, 670 Race head is 4 lbs x $1.34 = $5.36, $400 Retail. Skidoo 521-670 Cast Head $398. A billet Single head on eBay $60.

Look at RPE Hirth Engine Retail Prices, then look at Aerolites Prices. Greed is a terrible thing. Recreational Power Engineering - Hirth Engines - Tiffin, Ohio - Factory Authorized US Distributor

#1 Selling Part 103 in the USA is the Aerolite 103. Aerolites Prices are below.

Billet Head for a Single $159 on eBay.
 

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Tuneturkey

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Boy that's a heap of information that will take a while to digest.
I don't know what your motivation was , but I appreciate the opportunity learn.
Of particular note for me, is that my Hi-Max currently running on a ROTAX 503 may well do fine on my dual CARB, 1/2 VW, 30hp engine. Its MTOW weight is 557 lbs, 188 lb pilot+30#fuel+ 339 lb, empty plane. .
The 503 with exhaust and motor mount in all probability comes close to the weight of the 1/2 VW. Looking at it a different way, at MTOW, thats 18.57 lbs/hp. with the 503 its 11.14 lbs/hp. The Max is bare bones, yet 80 lbs too heavy
Per your data, the Max would probably fly with the 1/2 VW, but how well would it fly? It flys pretty well with the 50hp 503.
My mistake was to go for a 69mm x 92mm conversion on the VW, when a 74mm x 94mm for 40 hp would have better fit the bill. Live and learn!
 

BJC

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Probably could save some weight, at the expense of aesthetics, by replacing the vertical with a fabric enclosure of the aft two bays in the fuselage, and adding a small section to the rudder ahead of and above the hinge line. Migh also improve rudder control forces and reduce drag.


BJC
 
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