Tri-Mower Design

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by blane.c, Jan 23, 2020.

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  1. Jan 24, 2020 #21

    jedi

    jedi

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    As a CFI multi I think clarification is needed. No multi rating is required for solo. A multi CFI should be able to sign off a student solo endorsement. The two seats are available for dual training. The experimental exemption mentioned earlier should allow solo flight provided the operating limitations do not require the multi rating. However, if the operating limitations do require the rating, a solo sign off to gain proficiency should be possible.

    I say "should" because the FARs have some language that is unclear about solo sign off of a student when the "student" is a rated pilot. This has muddied the waters for some power pilots getting a glider rating.

    i am willing to help as much as possible in the certification area.
     
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  2. Jan 24, 2020 #22

    Vigilant1

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    We've had some pretty good discussion on this issue in other threads, including some in-the-weeds parsing of § 61.31 (l)(2).

    Here:
    There are useful contributions from dana, BBerson and others after this post:
    What I've been unable to find is:
    1) Why a DAR would write OLs that would require a multiengine rating/endorsement for solo flight of a multiengine E-AB aircraft (since such a requirement is not consistent with the written guidance of § 61.31 (l)(2) and § 61.31 (l)(2) )?
    and
    2) If a DAR has authority/discretion to include a multiengine rating/endorsement requirement in the OLs of a multiengine E-AB aircraft, how can a builder determine if this is likely, and what factors influence the decision? In other words, if the DAR is expected to exercise some judgement in this, presumably there are guiding criteria. Centerline thrust? Ability to safely climb with one engine out? VFR vs IFR? etc.

    Though this is certainly a niche area, the subject is pretty significant to anyone contemplating designing, building, or buying a multiengine E-AB. The cost to get an MEL rating/endorsement could easily be more than the cost of materials, engines, etc to build the plane.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  3. Jan 24, 2020 #23

    Vigilant1

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    Among the long previous posts, an important point was made by Dana:
    I wrote:
    and Dana replied (in part):


     
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  4. Jan 24, 2020 #24

    Sockmonkey

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    That would also give some dihedral effect as well wouldn't it? Maybe enough so the high wing can be totally straight?
     
  5. Jan 24, 2020 #25

    blane.c

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    My fault it isn't clear but it is a low wing, the rear seated person is about the 1/4 chord
    My fault it isn't clear it is a low wing, the rear seated person is about the 1/4 chord. If the little wings are the same profile as the main wings they should stall at the same angle of attack so an extra couple of degrees should provide stall warning. I am not sure if they would have an effect like dihedral but the main wings will have 5 degrees outboard of the main attachment stub.
     
  6. Jan 24, 2020 #26

    TFF

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    Generally operating instructions today have been working on closing loopholes that old ones have. My operating instructions are from 1998 and there is nothing in them about repair or modification, only inspection. I know some old ones require physical inspection by FAA for anything. A more than average complex aircraft like a twin or jet is going to have additions to the boilerplate standard. CYA.
     
  7. Jan 24, 2020 #27

    BBerson

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    This is all very confusing and I don't know where to find proven answers.
    But in a recent forum conversation with EAA’s Joe Norris, he said this:
    1)The mandate for type ratings in the Operating Limitations as stated in FAA Order 8130.2 are required. These Operating Limitations override the solo exemptions in Part 61, according to Joe. He said the need for a Powered Lift rating is holding up current evtol development and the FAA may issue an exemption after you build one (not before).
    I asked about student pilot solo endorsements in EA-B and didn't get a suitable reply.

    I would like additional information about how a Private Pilot can get additional solo endorsements. For example is an endorsement required for a Single engine rated Private Pilot to solo a twin Apache? If so, is the solo endorsement required every 90 days or is it permanent?
    Of course, for a twin EA-B, the solo endorsement requirements for a Private Pilot may be much different, if allowed at all. For example it may have only one seat, so how does that work?
     
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  8. Jan 25, 2020 #28

    Vigilant1

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    How does a regular citizen go about getting a definitive answer on something like this? Surely a person shouldn't need to depend on one person's interpretation. Nobody should have to build an airplane to find out what the rule means, especially if the rule/ policy differs from a written regulation.
     
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  9. Jan 25, 2020 #29

    BJC

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    Are you guys telling me that I need some sort of license from the imperial government to pilot an airplane?


    BJC
     
  10. Jan 25, 2020 #30

    Vigilant1

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    I've gotta get some VPN software so that my IP address tracks back to Uraguay. Then I can say things like this.
    I hear the black helicopters...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  11. Jan 25, 2020 #31

    BJC

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    There are times when I think that Chopper and I are more aligned in our thinking than either of us is willing to admit.


    BJC
     
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  12. Jan 25, 2020 #32

    TFF

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    I believe the solo is between categories. You have a ppl license airplane single land. If you solo a helicopter, you are a licensed pilot so you can’t be a “student”. Signed off for “solo” that situation gives you infinite flying practice. If you want to add multi airplane, there is no solo required to get that license but you also don’t have an equal license in a different category. It is fun to think a balloon ppl only needs one sign off to putt around in a C150 by themselves forever. You do have to have the biannual current.

    The exception that was quite popular in the 70’s was soloing students in non standard training planes and as many different types they could get their hands on. Airline pilot dad would arrange for their buddies to fly over and they would solo kid in a bunch of planes on their 16th birthday. I remember reading the lists in Sport Aviation. One girl soloed in 80 different airplanes. My favorite was solo in dads P-51. I think that kid flew 30 planes that day. As long as plane can be single pilot and the CFI has experience in the type, it can be signed off solo. Only for the lucky gene club though. Born into airplane royalty.
     
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  13. Jan 25, 2020 #33

    blane.c

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    I don't know what others are saying. I read the 61.31 (I) (2) (B) as that a "pilot" does not need an additional class or type rating to fly a multi engine experimental airplane. This is clearly defined in the regulation. If somebody else wants to interpret it differently I want to beat there a** to a fruit juicy pulp, that is who I am.
     
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  14. Jan 25, 2020 #34

    BBerson

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    I was in a courtroom watching a senior FAA Manager give testimony. He recited FAR's by exact number. He did not use internal FAA Orders. So I think the FAR's are the law. They are publicly adopted and recorded in the Federal Register (and we can ignore the rest).
     
  15. Jan 25, 2020 #35

    jedi

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    No. There is not any USA regulation that requires a license from the Imperial Government in order to pilot an airplane. If any of you think that there is please copy the appropriate regulation or law to this list.

    For B Berson: Do not equate a pilot with a student pilot certificate with a student pilot. If you are training for an additional certificate or rating you are a student pilot regardless of the category or class of the pilot certificate in your pocket. If the student does not have the category or class certificate or the rating for the conditions of flight (IFR, night, high altitude, complex, high performance, etc) he/she is a student and can not be PIC and is likely not a second in command.

    If a CFI can endorse a student pilot certificate holder for solo flight in a particular category or class of aircraft what prohibits the CFI form doing the same for the holder of a higher class or other category of certificate?

    Any solo endorsement is subject to the 90 day maximum limitation. Correct me if I am wrong. It is to late to look up exact wording of FARs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  16. Jan 25, 2020 #36

    BBerson

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    All that I have found on this topic about solo operations and rules is in part 61 Subpart C --Student Pilots.
    It has all the rules about solo flight for student pilots. Solo requirements is 61.87

    The rules for Private Pilots is in Subpart E-- Private Pilots.
    But no mention of solo requirements (or endorsements needed or not for private pilots)

    Next I go to Subpart B and read about "Additional class rating". It says any person who applies for an additional class rating to be added on a pilot certificate must have an endorsement....
    But I don't want to apply for a rating! I just want to fly solo.
     
  17. Jan 25, 2020 #37

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    There is a place for bureaucrats, I just haven't dug it yet.
     
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  18. Jan 25, 2020 #38

    TFF

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    There is a loophole in the FARs. Unless you have a buddy DAR, the loophole will be closed in the operating instructions. That’s how they keep the system balanced.
     
  19. Jan 25, 2020 #39

    Tiger Tim

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    So anyways, for the technical side of things I’m trying to picture where the outboard engines go. Do the props end up in line with one of the occupants or am I imagining this all wrong?
     
  20. Jan 25, 2020 #40

    Vigilant1

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    Can you elaborate a bit on the "loophole?". A DAR can't change the regulation. But, maybe there's another reg that allows this discretion, that allows a DAR to provide restrictions in the OLs that are inconsistent with other guidance (to include § 61.31 (l)(2) ).
     
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