# Prize Money

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by jedi, Jan 27, 2018.

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1. Mar 27, 2018

### BBerson

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The deadline to enter is April 18, I think.

2. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello Giggi.

You write:
“I didn't think they were nominating winners yet.”

So did I.

And initially I thought (with all the good will of the world) that the “20 minutes” (instead of the “20 miles”) was a typing mistake.

And I asked them to correct it, showing the huge difference between the two (miles and minutes).

Then,
from the delayed reaction (it took four days) of GoFly’s representative to my question “20 miles or 20 minutes?” (in the GoFly forum https://www.herox.com/GoFly/forum/thread/2715 ), and from the reply itself, I started thinking that the change of the original goal may not be an innocent typing mistake, but it was made “on purpose”.

And the only reasoning, I can guess, behind such crucial change of the original goal (as it was presented in the press, in the TV channels, in the web etc; you can find many articles written in September / October 2017 about the GoFly / Boeing contest) is that GoFly tries to help their favourite teams that cannot comply with the original goal (the 20 miles minimum range).

The reaction of the GoFly, so far, is: “get it, or leave it”.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

3. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello Tiger Tim

It took almost a century to go from the “non stop from NY to Paris” to the 6.9miles allowable range of the GoFly / BOEING million dollar grant prize.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

4. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello BBerson

Actually, you can participate starting directly from the second phase (dead line: December 8, 2018).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

5. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello Pictsidhe

“So you could still win a million dollars with something that can't meet the requirements? Numerous people who didn't enter because they thought it wasn't possible must be annoyed at that. Meanwhile, those who couldn't do the maths first are happy.
What a farce.”

I asked GoFly at least to correct the “20 miles goal” shown at the top of all their web pages like:

“Design and build a safe, quiet, ultra-compact, near-VTOL personal flying device capable of flying 20 miles while carrying a single person.”

because it is a misleading / false requirement.

But they don't listen.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

6. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello all.

You (as members of the HomeBuiltAirplane forum) can better explain to the GoFly heads (and to BOEING) the importance of the long range for a Personal Flying Device (even the 20 miles is too short to be really useful) and the safety a higher cruising speed offers.

They can ignore me.
But, I suppose, they could not ignore a team of independent doers / tinkers / thinkers who make and test (personal in most cases) flying devices.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

7. Mar 27, 2018

### Victor Bravo

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Boeing does not have to listen to anybody and can ignore everybody, for the same reasons Airbus, Toyota, and Monsanto don't have to listen to anybody and can ignore everybody.

This Go Fly thing is Boeing's money, Boeing's rules, and IMHO it is being done for Boeing's publicity... with some secondary consideration for providing an opportunity for inventors to exercise their brains.

Again in my own opinion Boeing's reasoning for changing the rules is to manage and generate the publicity this contest creates. It is completely possible that the rule changes were done because Boeing's original rules were seen as too demanding, or that the rules were finally admitted to be unrealistic, and the company wanted to avoid the negative perception that this would cause.

Regardless of whether they changed from 20 miles to 20 minutes, the fundamental parameters that were set forth for this competition are going to be very difficult to meet, because all of the laws of physics and common sense are fighting in unison against achieving the stated parameters.

8. Mar 27, 2018

### manolis

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Hello Victor Bravo.

You write:
“This Go Fly thing is Boeing's money”

Not exactly.

In order to take part to the GoFly contest, an individual has to pay a US250$submission fee to GoFly, while a team has to pay a US500$ submission fee to the GoFly.

So, a part of the prizes for the winners is other contestants’ money (while the entire advertisement is BOEING's).

You also write:
“This Go Fly thing is Boeing's money, Boeing's rules”.

Even for “the” Boeing, a basic ethical rule should be: "do not change the rules in the middle of the race".

Unless it is not the Boeing that presenting in the CNN the GoFly contest explained that it is for a 20 miles minimum range:

On the other hand, even if you are the Boeing and you finally decide to change your own rules / goals, don’t hide it.

Please get into the GoFly web site, read the top sentence in each web page and let me know if it speaks about 20 miles minimum range.

You also write:

“It is completely possible that the rule changes were done because Boeing's original rules were seen as too demanding, or that the rules were finally admitted to be unrealistic, and the company wanted to avoid the negative perception that this would cause.”

If the goal of the 20 miles is unrealistic, the Boeing besides changing the rules to “more realistic ones”, should also declare a new prize, the “RANGE PRIZE”, e.g. as follows:

A prize of 5 million US dollars will be granted by BOEING to the one who (obeying all the rules / requirements of the GoFly contest) will demonstrate with his personal flying device a 50miles range (carrying a single person, without refuelling or recharging).

For every 10 miles above the 50 miles range, the “RANGE PRIZE” increases by 1 million dollars (i.e. for a 250miles range, the “range prize” becomes 25 million US dollars).

If the 20 miles is an unrealistic goal, the 50 miles and the 250 miles are impossible.
So, there is no risk for BOEING’s money with such an immposible goal.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

9. Mar 27, 2018

### Highplains

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How much sweat does your ceiling fans remove?

10. Mar 27, 2018

### DangerZone

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Could it be that they changed the rules when someone told them that an electric paraglider fits the technical criteria? The whole wearable rig weighs less than 50kg, has a range of more than 20 miles with larger batteries or 10 liters of gasoline. I did not payattention to details, but it seems you pointed out in the right direction. Taking $250 to$500 per participant seems cheap from a company spending millions on marketing. And this indeed looks like marketing, cause everything esle is already invented.

11. Mar 27, 2018

### Tiger Tim

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That's just to ensure the participants are serious.

12. Mar 27, 2018

### DangerZone

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Ok, but then again this works the other way around. Who can guarantee that their prize is serious, not just Boeing advertisement?

What do the participants get for this money?

13. Mar 27, 2018

### BJC

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Here is a response to a question I emailed them earlier today.

BJC

edit: The press releases read as if written by a PR person and issued without review from the technical people.

Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
14. Mar 27, 2018

### pictsidhe

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Yes, those who think the rule change makes it attainable can still enter. But you only have 3 weeks to do phase 1. That's not going to attract many new entrants.
Yes, it's Boeing's baby and they can do what they like. Set an impossible target, lower that bar weeks before phase 1 is due. All fine, legally.

15. Mar 27, 2018

### pictsidhe

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Dangerzone, paramotors miss the size constraint by a country mile, probably the noise one and they don't do VTOL, either. Do great for vision, though.

16. Mar 27, 2018

### RonL

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I came very close to making an entry to the contest, but the timeline for me was to tight, an electric power system making use of vortex energy and thermal energy transfer as in tip generators is getting closer to a reality (recharge batteries while you fly) if one considers the first law of thermodynamics this has to be near to possible.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130010780.pdf

the ability to spin a generator with high speed air flow, can be equated to high velocity air flow friction and heat transfer inside a rotor tip ram tube.
Basically the energy at the tip speeds is greater than energy needs to produce lift of a few hundred pounds.

It's not a free lunch, but rather a collection of heat with proper storage and use in a timely manner. Electromagnetic energy is one of the conservative forces

17. Mar 28, 2018

### manolis

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Hello Byron (BJC)

You write:
“edit: The press releases read as if written by a PR person and issued without review from the technical people.”

The “20 miles range requirement” is still written in the heading of all the web pages of the GoFly web site.

Also that GoFly is sponsored by Boeing:

If the above is not confusing AND misleading, then what is it?

If you write to GoFly again,
please ask them why the “20 miles minimum range” goal is not yet removed from the top of their web pages.

Quote from https://www.herox.com/GoFly/forum/thread/2715?page=2 (March 21, 2018, 3:33 a.m. EET):

“Since “The 20 mile statement applies to the aspirational GoFly vision and not the competition itself”, let me wonder:

Why the “aspirational GoFly vision” is so much limited to only 20 miles?

Since the “20 miles range” is merely a vision and not a requirement of the GoFly contest, do change it to “200 miles range” which is a really useful range.
With only 20 miles range (current GoFly’s vision), a personal flying device can(?) hardly reach the nearest gas or energy station to refill its tank or to recharge its batteries."

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

18. Mar 28, 2018

### manolis

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They get a web site ( https://www.herox.com/GoFly ) that starts with a misleading / fake goal.

Instead of gathering 250 or 500 US dollars from each participant, they (GoFly and BOEING) could ask the contestants to pay to, say, the UNICEF this amount of money (or even more) and to file the receipt to GoFly.

This would ensure that not only the participants are serious, but also that GoFly and BOEING are serious too.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

19. Mar 28, 2018

### Victor Bravo

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We must understand that there is an enormous difference between the word "goal" and the word "requirement".

Apparently Boeing itself has confused many people because of how they have addressed this issue.

Although all of this has misled many, it is still possible that Boeing legitimately hoped that some inventor could develop a personal flying machine that would safely carry one person for 20 miles, and still fit into the small/quiet parameters of their competition. It is completely possible that this was their "goal" as is written on their page.

The fact that their "requirements" are not as stringent as their goal clearly tells me that they are well aware that their "goal" was too optimistic.

DangerZone likes this.
20. Mar 28, 2018

### pictsidhe

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I looked at the rules and rapidly decided that i couldn't meet all of the requirements. Didn't seem to be worth entering if i couldn't. Shoukd i have had a lawyer decipher them?