Plane hits building in Austin... more fodder for HS/TSA?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by bmcj, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. Feb 19, 2010 #21

    vortilon

    vortilon

    vortilon

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    If it had not been a plane it would have been a semi loaded with sand bags or worse.
    They are going to punish us for his actions most surely. AC-150-5190-6B will be a walk in the park compared to whats coming. Get ready for a visit to a shrink before your medical can be renewed. Sport pilots license? I remember those.
     
  2. Feb 19, 2010 #22

    Dana

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    When the government has to protect itself from its own citizens, something is very, very, wrong.

    Dana

    A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have. --Thomas Jefferson
     
  3. Feb 19, 2010 #23

    vortilon

    vortilon

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    They say in France the government is afraid of the people and in the US the people are afraid of the government.

    FWIW
     
  4. Feb 19, 2010 #24

    roverjohn

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    I'm going to have to disagree with a few of the posters here. This guy was nothing more than a self absorbed jerk. He wasn't 'driven' to anything other than 'proving' that he thought his life was far more important than anyone else'. Read his manifesto. It's all about him, and how HE was wronged. Not a single thought that his failures may have been even partially self made. This is nothing more than a case where reality finally caught up with the guy's ego and he needed to prove it wrong. He didn't so he's still a loser.
     
  5. Feb 19, 2010 #25

    bmcj

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    Was his act of desperation the wrong way to handle this?
    YES.

    Was it effective way to draw attention to his views?
    MAYBE.

    Can any American read his letter without nodding their head in agreement with many of his points in regard to the general workings of our current system?
    PROBABLY NOT.

    Our system of government is a well thought out, very effective, and very fair system. Our current governance, however, is a far cry from the ideals of our founding fathers and the Constitution they so carefully drafted.
     
  6. Feb 19, 2010 #26

    skeeter_ca

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    Just remember,

    "It becomes the darkest before everything goes totally black."

    Sure he had his points, but he was not trying to play by the rules. He wanted to bend the rules to fit his ideas. I have heard of these so called anti-tax people trying to get out of paying taxes and it usually ends up with something like this or they go to jail. He wanted to bend the laws instead of change them. With all the time and money spent why not just change the laws. I'm not saying it's easy. Actually it would probably be one of the most hardest things to ever accomplish but it would be a great accomplishment.

    skeeter
     
  7. Feb 19, 2010 #27

    cpd

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    YES he handled the situation in the worst way possable, but now the whole country knows the story from his point of view and there is a lot of truth to it.

    Chris
     
  8. Feb 19, 2010 #28

    roverjohn

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    But his point of view is idiotic and clearly distorted when you look at his actions and then read his words. So unless his goal was to become a hero for people with two digit IQ's he's failed, again. The fact of the matter is that many people who likely have less ability than him still end up living very comfortable lives by living within the rules instead of ignoring them. He should have immolated himself in front the building as a show of self sacrifice and left the house alone. People like this guy are very easy to spot. They always think they're the smartest guy in any room even if their accomplishments say otherwise.
     
  9. Feb 19, 2010 #29

    Inverted Vantage

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    Agreed with roverjon. The guy was at total fault and blamed it on everyone but h, conveniently the government. Maybe he should have sold the plane and the house if he was so overcome with debt. Together those two things total nearly half a million dollars. And to people that are agreeing with him; it's all of our fault that the government is so non functional. Congress represents the PEOPLE, and everyones problem is that they're doing it too well; we all wan a slice of the federal money pie but are unwilling to say "hey, maybe our town can do without that funding" or "hey, maybe I can take higher taxes because the country is in debt and I want all these program that benefit me" or even "hey, we are hemmoraging money, I'll take a cut in my programs budget". Instead of blaming congress all the time, try blaming ourselves - they give what we want; but we all want without thinking of others.

    Edit: and as an example to prove my point; airport closures. Aopa fights tooth and nail to keep pretty much every airstrip open. We write to our congressmen to keep them open, even when they have maybe 5 planes on them and as many flights in a month. But they're what we WANT, dammit. So our congressman, wanting to keep his constituants happy, keeps it open. We like him! But then he goes to congress without the $500,000 a month that closing those airports would have saved, and we're infuriated wih them for their inability to manage money! **** them for getting us in debt! It's their fault! But it's not, it's ours, because we refuse to give ground on what we want with no consideration to the bigger picture.
     
  10. Feb 19, 2010 #30

    Rom

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    There may be some truth to what he wrote but what I'm afraid of is that the political fringe may a have a new martyr to emulate.
     
  11. Feb 19, 2010 #31

    bmcj

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    You make some good points. We are indeed responsible for those we put in office, but political awareness of the public-at-large is waning and actual change is becoming more difficult to enact (thanks in part to gradual changes [incrementalization] that have been made in the political system, aided by some non-sensical court verdicts). Bold acts and civil disobedience have long been tools to raise awareness and initiate change... remember the Boston Tea Party?

    As to your observation about accepting Federal endowments, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, endowments to individuals is only a small part of the "hemmorage". Much of the disbursement is to the states, counties, and cities. I don't ask for or expect any entitlements, and wish others would do the same. Unfortunately, I can't make that decision for the agency officials. Personally, I don't think that it is the Federal government's role to manage and redistribute these funds. The flow of tax money should only rise to the level at which it will be used, and not beyond. The Constitution spells out six areas of responsibility for the President and Congress (aka, the Federal government). All other roles and responsibilities are to be left to the state and local level. Unfortunately, the "status quo" that exists today does not reflect this model.

    And that is exactly what is happening... even here.
     
  12. Feb 19, 2010 #32

    bmcj

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    Yes, there are many "fringe" groups. Some that I feel have valid points and some that are off in "la la" land. Unfortunately, Joe Stack's act will be touted by many of these groups, both the legitimate ones and the "la la's".
     
  13. Feb 19, 2010 #33

    Joe Kidd

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    Working as I do in law enforcement I have a pragmatic outlook regarding this entire incident. Further having been involved with aspects involving regional Homeland Security issues I have further concerns for the future as the tendency to sway to public outcry and in turn over react runs rampant within many of our higher echelon elected officials and their appointees.
    A disturbed person will rarely react in any manner anticipated by others who know them. Much is made after the fact of what should have been done to prevent tragedies such as this or even what could have been done. The fact of the matter is that hindsight is always 20/20 while foresight tends to be myopic.
    A rational person as well as most irrational ones could have achieved all of their goals of informing the public of their grievances or concerns regarding the IRS through means of peaceful protest. To think that such peaceful protest would not garner a high degree of media attention would be foolish. In fact given the current economic climate and perceived discontent with government it would have made network news.
    Further, there is little doubt in my mind that more than a few people would have sent money to help this fellow. A willing course of treatment with a competent mental health professional would have also been beneficial. But of course all of this falls under the category of hindsight, what we have now is senseless, selfish action that can never be undone, or taken back.
     
  14. Feb 19, 2010 #34

    bmcj

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    Well said Joe Kidd.

    Regarding my earlier post:

    I would like to clarify, I was referring to Stack's earlier efforts to draw attention to the situation. His last and loudest act goes beyond what I would consider a sane response. The taking of his own life is sad. The taking of others is tragic. There may be a time when physical revolt is the solution, but I still hope that there are other avenues, less drastic, for achieving true reform.
     
  15. Feb 19, 2010 #35

    roverjohn

    roverjohn

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    You sir are a Libertarian, like me. Most likely unlike me though because I vote Libertarian and support them with cash when I can. If even 5% of the population started to vote 3rd party, especially one third party like the Libertarians, instead of for the lesser of two evils our governance would wake up instantly. No need to fly into buildings while blaming others your problems.
     
  16. Feb 19, 2010 #36

    bmcj

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    I would agree with you that my principles are those of a Libertarian (and Constitutionalist). I have even been known to vote for Libertarian candidates when the balance has not been so lopsidedly against the Libertarian and so marginally balanced between the two major party candidates. It is sometimes better to help eek out a victory for the lesser of two evils than it is to make a principled statement.

    Given the complexion of the two major parties, it is truly unfortunate that the political electoral machine is built to keep them in power above all else. I would truly love to see a revamping of the system to give the others, especially the Libertarians, a fair shot at the higher offices. My only fear if that bacame a reality lies in the expectation that those who are not Libertarian masquerading as one to gain favor.
     
  17. Feb 19, 2010 #37

    roverjohn

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    Um, then you have to vote for them. Voting against you conscience so you can "win" with the lesser of two evils is the greatest waste of a vote possible. And, it's put us in the exact place you claim to abhor.
     
  18. Feb 19, 2010 #38

    Toobuilder

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    I can relate. My highly intelligent father, who gave me the gift of flight, lost everything he had to the IRS. As I read the "suicide note", I realize this guy had a lot in common with my dad. The only apparent difference is my dad lost far more money and time than this guy, yet didn't kill himself. He simply died broke.

    I certainly can't condone killing yourself, particularly by flying into the side of a building, but we should not rush to judge this guy a crackpot. He probably followed the "rules" far more closely than most of us, but was at the same time denied the same courtesy by his own government.

    Yes, he handled the situation poorly, but our own government is FAR more culpable than many in this thread realize. The IRS is among the most illicit, evil, and destructive forces in America... If this event sheds just a little light on their transgressions, then we need to run with that, not the mental state of this one guy.
     
  19. Feb 19, 2010 #39

    Inverted Vantage

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    So the organization that has essentially made it possible for this nation to function and become as powerful as it has is the most evil thing ever? And the millions who file their taxes without incident don't outweigh te relative few that manage to get problems? I'm sorry, but if you want to continue to live in a powerful free democrcy, you must realize that it takes some of your own personal sacrifice. For soldiers it's blood, for statesmen it's time, and for the rest of us it must be money. This guy may have had financial issues, but I doubt the IRS auditor suddenly woke up one day and said "I want to ruin someones life, let's make it him"
     
  20. Feb 20, 2010 #40

    Toobuilder

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    First off, the IRS and personal income tax are a relatively new thing in this country. The country was never designed to function on the backs of the income we earn. Yes, the IRS is essentially the most evil entity in this country.

    The United States is a Republic, not a Democracy. There is a BIG difference!
     

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