# In one pciture, why I never, ever, ever want Dual Instruction

Discussion in 'General Experimental Aviation Questions' started by choppergirl, Sep 26, 2017.

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1. Sep 26, 2017

### choppergirl

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So I was happily working along on my rough and rusty plane pick up trailer yesterday, an essential part of my airplane "kit", griding off all the jaggy blow torch cut edges to be smooth, grinding away the weld splatter and over welds, and knocking off as much rust as I possibly could everywhere with a variety of different rotary tools. Taking a diamond in the rough, so to speak, and putting some hours into it to polish it up to be something that one day I would be proud to haul my airplanes to the airport and back on, not an old rusty piece of s***.

I was trying out some polycarbide abrasive wheels for the first time, and seeing how they worked compared to whizzer steel brush wheels, and taking off the white residue after I painted it with phosphoric acid to neutralize some rust. I found to my surprise the rubbery polycarbide wheels also did a nice polishing like a fine grit sand paper on all my grinder wheel grinds, and made them go from smooth to super smooth. For large flat surfaces, they were fast at taking off light stuff on their sides, and good at taking off paint or hard rust held the other way.

I'm happy, I'm relaxing and taking my time, I'm going to make this exactly the want it to be, and when I give myself that kind of power, boy does it really give me licence to do anything I want to fix thing the way I think they should be right, and it really puts the wind in my sails. I'm stoked now, lets put in 8 hour days until we are up in the air!

Not quite ready for the rusty metal primer, but getting there and looking good...! No sharp edges anywhere that could catch on some clothes or a wing or cut my hand.

Ok, so my dad zooms over this morning, and tells me that he raced off to town, bought some brackets, and for me to clean off my tools, he was going to weld those brackets on, that would be the cheapest way to go. Okay, that's not in my plan, I was just going to drill a few holes and bolt my own homemade brakets out of cut L channel myself after I painted them too.

He says come over when I'm ready and draw some lines where I want them to go, and hauls off my trailer with the ATV.

He also told me, he got some paint strainers for his spray gun, so we can shoot this thing with my paint. Okay, again, not in my plans at all, I don't like spray guns, I just wanted to take my time and enjoy painting it with a brush, and I don't want to waste my paint because it was \$ as heck.

So I go back to bed, and in thirty minutes, he zooms back over with this:

The green lines are where I wanted to run my boards across. The circles are where he welded homemade tabs on.

I looked at this with immediate distress and though I can do one of four things:

1. Not hurt his feelings, and use his tabs to attach my cross boards in the places I don't want them.
2. Grind off his tabs, and go ahead with what I want. My trailer.
3. Leave his tabs, because they are not in the way of anything, but don't use them. Go ahead and bolt L brackets where I want my boards to go.
4. Use some of his tabs like the pink ones because they are sort of in the right place, and ignore the other orange ones, because they aren't in the way of anything

These tabs cause no major damage, and no big harm, maybe they add a little weight, but there is a more insidious other harm.

I had to emotional process this s***. That takes a while. And I can only get around it when I come up with the logic around it.

No longer am I operating in my comfortable quiet little zone, at my own pace, but now I have an external unpredictable stupidity entering into the mix.

He may mean well, but he goes too fast, all the time, does a lot of stupid stuff, and did not even wait for me to communicate what I wanted (where I wanted the tabs).

~ ~ ~

In this case, it's on the ground, it's just a rusty old trailer project I'm working on, and it's not fatal. Just a little extra weight.

But what if I were in the air, with an instructor, and with two control yokes and two sets of pedals.

I'm a person who is a leader. I don't follow. I lead. Imagine two leaders trying to fly a plane....

Imagine the ****storm that ensues from different intents, different desires, different priorities, different states of mind, miscommunication, or lack of communication.

One wants to go right, the other left. One wants full left aileron to avoid an obstacle, the other wants full right rudder.... :-/

Or one is flying the plane, and the other is sitting there doing nothing and feeling powerless.

When I am in a plane, this is my stick. These are my rudder pedals. This is my input on how I control the plane. That's it. End of story.

Guys do this. They take over and F things up. They think they always know what's right. They won't let you fly the plane. If they see anything you are doing they would do differently, they grab the steering wheel.

You don't learn anything at your own pace this way by doing.

No thank you. No. No. No. Just, no.

I get sweet old guys offering free dual instruction, ostensibly so I won't get myself killed, and so I can feel what the plane feels like flying in the air before I take off, before I try to do it on my own, and I'm like, no thank you. It's nice an all, and thanks for the offer, but again, no thank you. I'm just fine going at my own pace I am comfortable at learnign by myself.

I sit balanced on top of motorcycles all the time through traffic. I don't get myself killed. Once you learn the controls, no a problem. If you really want to argue the point, consult my graphic about it

So yeah, next time you may want to push dual instruction on a girl and mansplain something and take over the controls, check my trailer picture with the color circles....

Want me to learn to drive a car, just give me the keys and an empty field to practice in. I'll be drifting through the pecan orchards around the pecan trees in about an hour like a pro....

Ah, that was cathartic, now maybe I can get back to work and do it my way, the right way...

2. Sep 26, 2017

### Victor Bravo

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And in one picture, the reason you are going to have to get some dual instruction...

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3. Sep 26, 2017

### cluttonfred

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I totally understand not wanting to say no to family or friends offering help, but putting it down to "mansplaining" is a cop-out. In this case, you could have stopped your Dad and said, "Thanks, but I'm not ready for that step yet." Or you could have gone with him to make sure he did it more like the way you wanted it to be. You didn't do either, so it didn't come out the way you wanted, but that's just as much your fault as your Dad's.

On the dual instruction part, there is a word for many of the self-taught pilots out there, and it's "late" as in "the late Choppergirl." Get whatever training you can, airplanes are intended to go high and fast enough that coming back down the wrong way can really hurt, even ultralights. You're absolutely right that the instructor and student can't be in charge at the same time, you're just wrong about who should be in charge in an emergency. There is a big difference between standing up for your rights as a woman and swallowing your pride long enough to admit that you don't know everything and can learn from someone else.

I say this as a father of three, one of them a twelve-year-old girl. I encourage her to stand up for herself, including to me on the (very) rare occasions that I am not right. ;-) I also say this as a decades-long student pilot (sigh, long story) currently taking dual in a Citabria from...(gasp!)...a woman. And she's a **** good instructor, period.

4. Sep 26, 2017

### Tiger Tim

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That is easily the worst reasoning for a thing that I have seen. Just have a good instructor, how hard is that to figure out?

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5. Sep 26, 2017

### pictsidhe

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Hang on, you think that because your dad messed with your trailer plans, you'd be better off teaching yourself to fly?
You really think, that with zero hours, you have a better idea of how to handle, oh, any flying task, than an experienced pilot? Haven't you noticed the EXPERIENCED pilots in here swapping notes and learning from each other? In another thread, someone said how when their instructor signed their first pilot's license, he was told "this is a license to learn".

Can you remember learning to ride a bike? Did you just get on one one day and ride it like a pro? No? What, you wobbled and fell over a while before slowly getting the hang of it?

Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

While I'm not sure how much instruction I can afford, I sure as hell would like some. I hate to admit it, but I'm almost certainly not quite Bob Hoover, yet
If you're getting offers of free lessons, ffs, smile sweetly and take them!

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6. Sep 26, 2017

### TFF

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Bob Hoover was taught how to fly.

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7. Sep 26, 2017

### Dana

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CG, I don't know what you're basing your conception of flight instructors on, but they will almost never handle the controls after the first lesson or two, unless it's to demonstrate something specific, or in an emergency. A good instructor will let you screw up (unless it's imminently dangerous), let you see the result of your screwup, and then explain what you did wrong.

That has absolutely nothing to do with arguing with your parents, which is a normal part of growing up.

Dana

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8. Sep 26, 2017

### blane.c

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LOL, HA HA HA HA, LOL, LOL, Chuckle chuckle LOL... **** that is some funny stuff. Knee slapper funny. Oh whew, I can't stop laughing to collect my thoughts.

OK here is just a suggestion, after your through being pissed off and you are ready to learn to fly ... get a woman instructor? At least until you solo.

9. Sep 26, 2017

### blane.c

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Oh yes and about the trailer, grind off the crap you don't want and bring it back to your father in a pick' a 'nick basket.

10. Sep 26, 2017

### blane.c

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I Have over 8,000 hrs of co-pilot and flight engineer time, I will go and get myself some dual before I fly the little ultralight I am fixing up. That is because I know first hand many of the things that can kill a person flying (many of my friends are dead). A over inflated ego being principal among them.

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11. Sep 26, 2017

### skeeter_ca

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A real "leader" knows when to listen, when to speak up and when to act. I don't see any of that here.

skeeter

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12. Sep 26, 2017

### Autodidact

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You're perfectly within your rights to teach yourself how to fly an ultralight, since the FAA doesn't require a license to fly one. But when a "sweet old guy" offers to give you some dual for free, you have nothing to lose, really. What's the difference between taking an airplane ride and learning nothing, and sitting at home and learning nothing? The difference is going for an airplane ride or not, and I know which I would choose. Also, not all guys are the thoughtlessly well meaning type; some are quite subtle about how they teach things, and if you spend some time listening to some of them you might get a vibe about how they go about things and accept a ride from one that strikes you as being wise and patient rather than pushy and impulsive. And then approach the ride as just a ride, listen to what is imparted, and think about it at length on your own time. The most difficult thing to learn about basic flying (for me) was the landing, specifically how to control the glide slope and how and when to flare out, and if you can find someone who can explain that in a way that makes sense to you, then they may be worth taking an airplane ride with.

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13. Sep 26, 2017

### MikePousson

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Sounds like a broken record. Conversation has been hashed, re-hashed, and now were in the hash soup stage of this drama.

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14. Sep 26, 2017

### N659HB

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So, who taught the Wright Bros how to fly?

15. Sep 26, 2017

### cluttonfred

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The same guy who sets the price of tea in China.

16. Sep 27, 2017

### Dana

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They taught themselves slowly, over years, starting with kites and then tethered gliders before flying a powered plane... and still had many close calls. Can you teach yourself to fly? Yes. Can you do it without getting hurt or destroying your plane? Maybe. Is it a stupid idea now that we don't have to? Yes.

Dana

17. Sep 27, 2017

### blane.c

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The Wright brothers were very intelligent methodical scientists. They first built gliders and went for very short flights progressing slowly to a powered aircraft. That is one of the many reasons they were first to achieve powered flight, when so many others launched and died. If qualified instruction had been available to them, I am sure they would have availed themselves.

18. Sep 27, 2017

### Rockiedog2

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I know some self taught pilots. Great guys both of em.
Terrible "pilots"...they don't know what they don't know.
They're lucky to be alive.

Typically those who think they can teach themselves to fly don't have the judgement to talk themselves out of it or listen to those who know better.

I like you CG, don't do it, OK?

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19. Sep 27, 2017

### Riggerrob

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Chopper girl,
Will you listen to the advice of someone who paid for plenty of dual time while earning his private pilot license?
Will you listen to someone who has taught skydiving for the last 35 years?
Will you listen to someone who is still teaching skydiving at age 60? (5 tandems Saturday).
Will you listen to someone who has plenty of scar tissue?
Will you listen to an instructor who tired of helping students out of trees DECADES ago?

Flying instructors talk through the lesson - on the ground - before takeoff. Then they demonstrate the maneuver. Then they hand over control to the student and talk them through the maneuver several times.
Flying instructors only say "my airplane" when the student is close to wrecking the airplane. Most of the time instructors grit their teeth and keep quiet as students bounce the airplane down the runway.
Flying is far too fast and far too high to learn from your own mistakes.
Far wiser to listen to old - scarred - pilots tell about their mistakes.

If you fear flying instructors: then read dozens of books about learning to fly and watch a thousand videos (YouTube.com) so that you can "ace" every lesson on the first try.

Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
20. Sep 27, 2017

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