Briggs vanguard conversions

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Hephaestus, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Jun 25, 2019 #561

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    I'm still learning from this thread. Look up "Ferris oil guard". Looks like a possible source of off the shelf Briggs dry sump parts. From my limited looking it looks like another version of the Rotax system.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  2. Jun 25, 2019 #562

    pictsidhe

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    I'm wondering if whirl is a problem, rather than TV. TV is less in your face.
     
  3. Jun 25, 2019 #563

    Vigilant1

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    Maybe some bits, or at least ideas, there that you could use. For a heads-up mode, I'm wondering if a larger oil filter (maybe remote mounted) might be an easy way to accommodate additional oil capacity and also induce better oil flow/filtration at the same time (more filter media = less pressure loss through it)

    And the lower mounts appear to me a bit of rolled-up something (maybe a locally fabricated temporary fix?)
    upload_2019-6-25_12-19-15.png

    General info on "whirl mode" is here: http://www.epi-eng.com/aircraft_engine_conversions/whirl_mode.htm
    The upper motor mounts on this installation do look a lot larger than the ones on the previous heads-up installation. Videos of the heads-up insallation of all of these V-twins show a >lot< of movement particularly at low RPM (not surprising). But comments from users indicate the motor mounts provide a lot of isolation from this shaking, and the in-flight videos seem to be relative free of vibration. So, the previous mounts were already >apparently< fairly soft/compliant. If the new ones allow even more engine movement, perhaps this is increasing the potential for whirl mode? It wouldn't be the first time that an attempted fix for a problem induced a different (and worse) problem.
    Yes, now I can see the photo better (the fuel filter is the give-way:) ). The pumps are plumbed in series. I wonder if there's a particular reason they diverged from their KISS-principle re-use of a stock B&S carb (maybe since they were re-doing a lot of other stuff anyway . . .). This will certainly give them some flexibility.
     
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  4. Jun 27, 2019 #564

    mm4440

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    An interesting experiment would be to take a stock V-2 engine and fit one of the VZ21 turbos that are available for under $150 on e bay and see how much power you can get before something fails and go from there.
     
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  5. Jun 27, 2019 #565

    Hot Wings

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    Would be interesting and entertaining, but expensive and probably wouldn't provide much useful information. What breaks at a high power setting may not be the same part that would break at a slightly reduced setting after several hours of use.

    I noticed that the Ferris oil guard system lets the oil change interval increase from 100 hours to 500.
    I can't tell if this only applies when using their full synthetic 15w-50 oil or just Mobil 1? Either way it seems like a lot of time. Even 100 hours means the average pilot will only need to change the oil at each condition inspection.
     
  6. Jun 27, 2019 #566

    Vigilant1

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    The 500 hour change is likely enabled by the more moderate average oil temps (more oil in circulation) and the better filtration. In typical recreational airplane use there's a lot of sitting around with resulting rust and water--and maybe lead. I'd be happy dumping that stuff out on a fairly regular basis.
     
  7. Jun 27, 2019 #567

    Hot Wings

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    Ditto. The cost of 3 or 4 quarts of oil, even full synthetic, is cheap. It would be nice to get a hold of some oil sample test reports from these little industrial engines to find out what is normal.

    For a base line:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-wiXu6hVzF-MEc1M29yUkJHWkk/view
     
  8. Jun 27, 2019 #568

    Hephaestus

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    The turbo on the stock engine and see what happens (maybe not until breakage) with increasing boost levels is a fair bit of my current thinking. I'm at this point more curious about cooling.

    But I'm wondering about swapping pistons and connecting rods since the current knowledge says they aren't going to take the boost.

    Probably should find something in an IR camera to be able to see what's going on.

    Oil - oil is cheap. No matter what the insane recommended intervals move out to. Oil is cheap as chips - landscaping the common 2 week interval on the bigger engines is maintained regardless of new recommendations, using synthetic etc. My car says 5000mi, I still change at 5000km (3000mi), landscaping they still do 2 week intervals so it's usually well under 100hrs. It's about the lowest cost critical maintenance possible. Cheap oil and pushing intervals never goes well.

    Mooney is 50hrs, oil and filter. Or apparently it'll get its first "or 3 months" change here soon before it comes home. Usually take an analysis sample too since they're fairly inexpensive to watch trends.
     
  9. Jun 27, 2019 #569

    Vigilant1

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    I would imagine these four-stroke air cooled industrial engines are about as tough on oil (and the additive packages in it) as a VW Type 1--probably similar oil temp profiles in use, similar amounts of blow-by, etc.
    Do these B&S/Vanguard OHV twins have flat tappets? If so, zinc is important and maybe that's why the B&S oil has it included (through it could be in there for the benefit of their older engines). Mobile 1 would not be a good oil for a flat tappet engine. Sonex now recommends Brad Penn oil for their Aerovee engines. For a long time they also recommended Pennzoil VR-1, which is easier to get and less expensive, and lots of folks still run it without any problems. Rotella 15W40 is also popular with the Corvair guys, and they have flat tappets.
    If the engine will see leaded fuel, synthetic oil is not recommended.
     
  10. Jun 27, 2019 #570

    pictsidhe

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    The additives in oils have changed over the years. With the advent of cats, some of them have found to hurt cat life, so have been reduced. Newer engines have been redesigned to live long lives with the reduced additives. If you want the best performing modern oil that isn't tweaked for cat life, it's quite simple, get a diesel oil. They have high levels of additives to cover archaic engines and don't need to worry about premature cat death. The thicker car oils also have higher additives. Might be thicker than 10-40, but you should check.
    I've never seen roller cam followers in an industrial engine and don't expect to any time soon. Briggs et al aren't chasing that last few % of performance as car manufacturers are.
     
  11. Jun 27, 2019 #571

    Hot Wings

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    Some of the Kohlers have roller cams/lifters - or did a few years ago when I started looking at these industrial engines.
    The 810 has flat tappets and the exhaust lobes are significantly thinner in width than the intakes because of the compression release mechanism. Just another reason I'm thinking about a cam with no release mechanism.

    Finally back from the 'vacation' so I might have some time free soon. Between a granddaughter with the attention span of an ADHD May Fly, motel WiFi and highway food, I'm glad to be home..........
     
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  12. Jun 27, 2019 #572

    BBerson

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    Casler recommends ordinary heavy duty diesel motor oil.
    I wouldn't care if the engine TBO was 100 hours. That's about 10 years or $100 per year at my rate of 10 hours a year.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  13. Jun 28, 2019 #573

    mm4440

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    Hi, stronger or shimmed valve springs might be the first things needed. Pistons and rods are high on the list for replacement. For performance the cam needs to be replaced. Better quality (bigger?) valves are up there too. So much needs to be replaced, buying just needed parts from B&S instead of a complete engine might be cheaper.
    CHT gauges and broad band O2 sensors for set up are important. How to load the engine is a challenge to do on a small budget. Suggestions?
    The B&S small block holds 1 1/2 qt of oil. Cam Guard has a small engine
    formula that should help.
     
  14. Jun 28, 2019 #574

    sotaro

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    As I remember I tried to match the graph of the smallest turbo with the 1 liter 3600 rpm engine and the airflow was marginal resulting in poor efficiency by the turbo.
     
  15. Jun 28, 2019 #575

    mm4440

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    I believe the VZ21 is a Chinese replacement for an IHI turbo used on Japanese K cars of 80 hp (?) should be adequate for the industrial V-2s. The smallest Garrett turbo is not as efficient as the next bigger ones either and costs 4 times as much. An intercooler would help.
     
  16. Jun 28, 2019 #576

    Basil

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    The lower mount is a standard SE33 mount. They are standard industrial rubber mounts with a piece of webbing round them to provide a safety strap should the rubber fail.
    mounts.jpg
     
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  17. Jun 28, 2019 #577

    pictsidhe

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    If you care about VE, the ports on Inteks are horrific. If you can fix those by filling and reshaping, the valves would benefit from a reduction in size. Cooling is the big question mark on these things, you can fairly easily get them to make enough power to fry them.
     
  18. Jun 28, 2019 #578

    Hot Wings

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    Then maybe we should be looking at liquid cooling? B+S is already going down this road. Kawasaki has for many years, but they are considerably more expensive.
    www4.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/vanguard_2lc.pdf
    B+S claims better power to weigh ratio but also list the dry weight, with muffler and radiator, as being significantly more. Could this engine be stripped down by a larger percentage than the air-cooled version?
    Another specification of note is the 500 pound thrust rating. This is the first time I've seen a thrust rating published.
    For my particular applications I'd be willing to accept a 15 pound weight hit in trade for the liquid cooling. I can partialy make up for that with improved aerodynamics and better efficiency. Cabin heat would be easier too - especially with a pusher.
     
  19. Jun 28, 2019 #579

    Vigilant1

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    I hadn't seen that engine before, thanks. Thoughts:
    - Copyright 2001. Is this program still alive? There's a LOT of water under the bridge since then (esp with regards to B&S partnerships with other companies, etc)
    - The flywheel has a cover/shroud around it, it remains to be seen if it incorporates other components and if this would complicate any hope of eliminating or modifying the flywheel for aircraft use.
    - Weight--Wow, 145 lbs for 27 HP (and the recommended max is just 22 HP). That's with the radiator and muffler, but without the coolant. That's heavier than some simple 75 HP Type 1 VWs. At 752cc and liquid cooling, I'd sure think it would be good for a lot more than 22 HP (esp at higher RPMs). I wonder if the 3600 max RPM is a true engine limitation, or if it is a logical marketing idea (to keep the engine compatible with all the transmissions and equipment already designed and fielded for 3600 RPM air cooled engines). They say the base engine can make more HP, but then leave it at that.
    - Flipping over a water cooled engine will require a close look at where the steam bubbles might get trapped, potential pump cavitation, etc.
    - No EFI/electronic ignition? Maybe that's just a reflection of the date of this literature.
    - The fan belt is driven off the flywheel (or at least the flywheel end). With all the stuff hooked onto the flywheel end, the prop pretty much needs to go on the PTO end. That would make sense anyway of the plan is to run this at 4-5K RPM and use a PSRU.
    - Cost? They went to great pains to insert the word "premium" as often as possible in the sell sheet.

    Interesting. We're getting fairly far removed from the goals of my particular project (KISS, cheap), but I can understand the attraction (esp if someone is planning to go inside and balance everything, fit a turbo to jam more charge into each stroke, fit racing conrods and a new cam, build an EFI system, etc). A water-cooled motorcyle engine built from the start for an easy 5000 RPM continuous might be a lighter (HP/weight) option, but an industrial engine has the advantages of 1) no built-in transmission to be cut off, 2) available in a crate, as many as you want 3) a beefy PTO built for side loads.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  20. Jun 28, 2019 #580

    Hot Wings

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    Unknown - by me. I ran across it a couple of weeks ago, but can't remember where. At the time it looked like a currently available product. The ease of finding any further information indicates it is at best a limited volume product - for 'premium' applications. ;)

    I just checked the price of the Kawasaki liquid-cooled on eBay and the price hasn't come up much in the last few years. They are actually cheaper than the big block Vanguard. 850ish cc and 31 Hp for the Kawasaki.

    I still think that the 810 B+S is still the best option for development of all of the small block industrial engines. But if the EPA keeps the pressure on the industrial market it's just a matter of time until they all go liquid cooled, just like they are now converting to EFI.
     
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