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Mohanakannan

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Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
I think that Aeromomentum makes a point of not saying 'Suzuki' at all. Is this for a one off, or do you hope to go into production? Will you want to use new engines if in production? It may be best to get your plane working well before approaching Toyota with a fait accompli.
The 1ZZ is a very good engine, but has a long stroke. To get good economy, you should keep revs lowish, probably no more that 4000. You can save sone weight by replacing the VVT sprocket with a plain one. An aircraft does not need VVT.
Yes, I want to use it for production if I did a good job on the demonstrator (Prototype). It is an undersquare engine and loves to revv low, I'm looking for 5500 peak rpm. I'm thinking of remapping the ECU and leave the engine stock.
 

Mohanakannan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
Toyota has no say in what you use a product you legally bought for.

And someone posted that you couldn't advertise that you product had a Toyota engine in it... stating a fact (this airplane has an engine made by Toyota) is not actionable. Implying that 'Toyota designed' or 'Toyota approved' or some such would be open to trademark issues.

But when I put a chevy engine in my plane I can advertise that it, in fact has, a chevy engine.
Good one, Thanks!
 

pictsidhe

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Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,812
Location
North Carolina
Yes, I want to use it for production if I did a good job on the demonstrator (Prototype). It is an undersquare engine and loves to revv low, I'm looking for 5500 peak rpm. I'm thinking of remapping the ECU and leave the engine stock.
BSFC will be bad at those revs and the piston speed it will result in. It vibrates a lot at those revs, too.. You should look for an engine that will run at a much lower piston speed. A stock car ECU is a poor choice for an aircraft.
 

Mohanakannan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
I think that Aeromomentum makes a point of not saying 'Suzuki' at all. Is this for a one off, or do you hope to go into production? Will you want to use new engines if in production? It may be best to get your plane working well before approaching Toyota with a fait accompli.
The 1ZZ is a very good engine, but has a long stroke. To get good economy, you should keep revs lowish, probably no more that 4000. You can save sone weight by replacing the VVT sprocket with a plain one. An aircraft does not need VVT.
Thanks for your advise, Yes
I think that Aeromomentum makes a point of not saying 'Suzuki' at all. Is this for a one off, or do you hope to go into production? Will you want to use new engines if in production? It may be best to get your plane working well before approaching Toyota with a fait accompli.
The 1ZZ is a very good engine, but has a long stroke. To get good economy, you should keep revs lowish, probably no more that 4000. You can save sone weight by replacing the VVT sprocket with a plain one. An aircraft does not need VVT.
BSFC will be bad at those revs and the piston speed it will result in. It vibrates a lot at those revs, too.. You should look for an engine that will run at a much lower piston speed. A stock car ECU is a poor choice for an aircraft.
Thanks for the advise. I am just a bigginer with 4 stroke fuel injected engines with ECUs, My project requires 130hp peak power, I was in the initial opinion that if we revv low and try to get this power we might have a higher BMEP which stresses the piston and the cylinders more in the stock setup, I drive motorcycles allot and have assumed that 5500rpm is not much, and now your advise makes me think again. I have planned to use G4 Atom ECU for the project, some ECU engines used for aero applicatons uses 2 ECUs for redundancy and kindly advise me on that.
 

pictsidhe

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Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,812
Location
North Carolina
I would suggest looking for a 160-180hp engine and derating it. Toyota make great engines, but they aren't too happy near max power and revs. Running near max torque is a better idea. Life and fuel consumption will be much better. Piston speed is the great equaliser aong with BMEP.
There was a supercharged 1zz, using a turbo instead of a supercharger at 4000rpm might be worth investigating. Stick to the stock 7psi boost.
 

pfarber

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Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
782
Location
Pennsylvania
I got three CYA letters from manufactures that didn't want their products used in my helicopter

#1 AiResearch then Signal Aircraft for the GTCP 36-55-c
#2 Robinson for the gearboxes and pieces
#3 Hiser Helicopters assuring that I didn't shag his parts supply so Robinson didn't screw with his flight School

Those were fun times for all
A company can refuse to sell to you as long as its not one of the protected reasons (race, sex, veterans status etc). And if you wanted to design a product around their component it could cause you trouble as they can refuse to sell their product to you individually or in bulk. They could refuse warranty service and they could refuse repairs if there is a 'used for intended purposes clause' or a 'fitness' clause.

But once you legally obtain it, there is nothing they can do to you. The only trouble you can get into is if you use their name/logo in publications. And even then you can legally say that your plane uses a Subaru engine, but you couldn't market it in a way that would dilute their trademark. You could even put Subaru logo's on the plane. But you would start to infringe if you tried to say 'Powered by Subaru' or some such.

Is it easier to simply get permission? Sure. Do you need it for personal use? NO. Do you need it for business use, no, but it would make life easier.
 

Mohanakannan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
I would suggest looking for a 160-180hp engine and derating it. Toyota make great engines, but they aren't too happy near max power and revs. Running near max torque is a better idea. Life and fuel consumption will be much better. Piston speed is the great equaliser aong with BMEP.
There was a supercharged 1zz, using a turbo instead of a supercharger at 4000rpm might be worth investigating. Stick to the stock 7psi boost.
Thanks for your advise, I just did some searches and found that the 1ZZ engine with stock setup cranks out 97hp at 4500 rpm and 112hp at 5500. Just a 15hp power gain with an increase in 1000rpm and the engine produces it's max torque some where around 4500 rpm. So I would do some research and find modifications to improve the power to 130hp and keep the rpm around 4.5k. If this modification could be done using ECU remapping alone it would be great. On the other hand I have bad experiences with engine modifications, my last engine modification worked well but consumed over an year! The 160-180hp engines are available but they do that power around 6000 to 7000rpm range.
 

Mohanakannan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
A company can refuse to sell to you as long as its not one of the protected reasons (race, sex, veterans status etc). And if you wanted to design a product around their component it could cause you trouble as they can refuse to sell their product to you individually or in bulk. They could refuse warranty service and they could refuse repairs if there is a 'used for intended purposes clause' or a 'fitness' clause.

But once you legally obtain it, there is nothing they can do to you. The only trouble you can get into is if you use their name/logo in publications. And even then you can legally say that your plane uses a Subaru engine, but you couldn't market it in a way that would dilute their trademark. You could even put Subaru logo's on the plane. But you would start to infringe if you tried to say 'Powered by Subaru' or some such.

Is it easier to simply get permission? Sure. Do you need it for personal use? NO. Do you need it for business use, no, but it would make life easier.
Good one.. Thanks for the information.
 

Mohanakannan

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
42
Location
Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
several designs View attachment 89299 View attachment 89300 View attachment 89299 View attachment 89300 View attachment 89301 a few mouses a few sky sharks one wind star and about a hundred turbine execs View attachment 89302
You must be Don Hillberg then, you are one of the pioneers of Homebuilt helicopters. I have read allot about you in Redback aviation, it was very inspiring to see your projects and your designs. I love wooden rotorblades and enjoyed the hand drawn Gyrodyne rotor blade plans that was on their vwebsite. May I know how your current projects are going on
 

Wanttaja

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Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
1,731
Location
Seattle, WA
A company can refuse to sell to you as long as its not one of the protected reasons (race, sex, veterans status etc). And if you wanted to design a product around their component it could cause you trouble as they can refuse to sell their product to you individually or in bulk. They could refuse warranty service and they could refuse repairs if there is a 'used for intended purposes clause' or a 'fitness' clause.

But once you legally obtain it, there is nothing they can do to you.
*Again*, though, that's the law in the US...it's not necessarily the same in India, where Mohanakannan lives. I suspect India's laws are based on that of the UK.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Russell

Active Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Ft Worth, Texas
...The only trouble you can get into is if you use their name/logo in publications. And even then you can legally say that your plane uses a Subaru engine, but you couldn't market it in a way that would dilute their trademark. You could even put Subaru logo's on the plane. But you would start to infringe if you tried to say 'Powered by Subaru' or some such. ...
Pfarber, these are the two stickers that I have on my plane. The difference is I am not trying to market it. Do you think I am on the ragged edge by saying “Powered By Subaru”?

Sticker - Fuselage.JPG Sticker - Cowl.JPG
 

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pfarber

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Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
782
Location
Pennsylvania
*Again*, though, that's the law in the US...it's not necessarily the same in India, where Mohanakannan lives. I suspect India's laws are based on that of the UK.

Ron Wanttaja
I missed that he's not in the US. And honestly, why ask foreigners about the laws in a country they don't live in???

This thread should end with 'talk to a lawyer in your country, we have no idea'.
 

pfarber

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Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
782
Location
Pennsylvania
Pfarber, these are the two stickers that I have on my plane. The difference is I am not trying to market it. Do you think I am on the ragged edge by saying “Powered By Subaru”?

View attachment 89319 View attachment 89320
Do * I * thinks its a problem? No. You are stating a fact, evidently for non-commercial use. That gives you protections from copyright and trademark.

Its been a long held legal opinion that statements of fact are not copyright-able. And copyright and trademark/trade dress disputes have to have a nexus to commerce to even trigger them. So if you say that your airplane is powered by Subaru, you are stating a fact. The use of their logo in a non-commercial activity is also not a problem. But say you sell sponsorship panels on your plane. Well, now it could appear that you are using the logo in the enhancement of your business. In that case I would either look up Subaru's marketing material guidelines or get a letter from Subaru covering your use of their logo.

This is an interesting read:

https://alt.coxnewsweb.com/ajc/adcreative/ops/guides/Subaru_Branding_Guidelines.pdf


I print my own t-shirts with logos of the companies I like, Fender, Peavey, Epiphone, Chevy, and a few others. For personal, non-commercial use I am golden. But if I start to sell them... yeah, that's the problem.

Just remember, at any time some corporate lawyer can send you a cease and desist letter threatening all sorts of things, its up to you if you want to fight it, or obey it.
 

proppastie

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Log Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
5,109
Location
NJ
Just remember, at any time some corporate lawyer can send you a cease and desist letter threatening all sorts of things, its up to you if you want to fight it, or obey it.
so how do you fight it?......send back a your own letter ? (my letter is bigger than your letter)
 

tcrbaker

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
14
Location
New Orleans
Thanks for your advise, Yes


Thanks for the advise. I am just a bigginer with 4 stroke fuel injected engines with ECUs, My project requires 130hp peak power, I was in the initial opinion that if we revv low and try to get this power we might have a higher BMEP which stresses the piston and the cylinders more in the stock setup, I drive motorcycles allot and have assumed that 5500rpm is not much, and now your advise makes me think again. I have planned to use G4 Atom ECU for the project, some ECU engines used for aero applicatons uses 2 ECUs for redundancy and kindly advise me on that.
You may want to look at the new Ford Dragon 1.5 liter all aluminum engine. They are the base engine for the 2020 Escape. In the Escape it is fitted with a turbo, in other application overseas it is normally asperated. I hope that Ford will make this motor available as a crate engine. Turbo charged it maker about 185 up. Looking at the up and torque curves a normal asperated engine will make around 100 up and 100 ftlb at 3000 rpm. I hope to get an engine out of a wreck so I can play with it. The engine is a little over square, but does have a balance shaft. If direct drive is contemplated the thrust bearing is located between cylinder 2 and 3. Tim
 

pfarber

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Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
782
Location
Pennsylvania
so how do you fight it?......send back a your own letter ? (my letter is bigger than your letter)
Well if its for personal use you can claim 'fair-use' as a defense. One of the 'trades' a business has to make in order to obtain copyright/patent protections is that in some cases, your logo/IP can be used by other in very specific cases royalty free.

For example, I can look up the patent for a widget, and then copy that widget exactly. BUT I can't call it a 'Chevy widget' as its not.. and the name is not part of the patent, that's copyright/trademark. Yes its confusing. But the general guideline is Personal use: go nuts. Not much they can do.

Fair use has 4 tests that you 'score' to judge the validity of the claim. The wiki article is a pretty good place to start.

For business? You really don't. Commercial use is pretty one sided in favor of the copyright/IP holder. If you want to have a patent fight or fight a copyright claim, you can... its a great way to make a little pile of money out of a big pile of money.

Lots of fan web sites run into this issue. There was a Ford Mustang web site that printed T-shirts and sold them to the members. It used the Ford logo and images of Ford products, without permission. Ford sued them and won.

Volkswagon of America went after bugauto.com As BUG was a registered trademark of VW.

"Second, BUG®, VOLKSWAGEN® and VW® are all duly registered trademark in the United States, "

"(4) by no later than January 17, 2005 transfer to VWoA the registration for the domain name bugauto.com, and agrees to sign all forms necessary, to provide other necessary information and documentation, and to send such electronic mail messages as may be necessary to accomplish the transfer of the domain name;"

Since bugauto.com was a commercial site, they got nailed.
 

D Hillberg

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Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
1,342
Location
very low low low earth orbit
You must be Don Hillberg then, you are one of the pioneers of Homebuilt helicopters. I have read allot about you in Redback aviation, it was very inspiring to see your projects and your designs. I love wooden rotorblades and enjoyed the hand drawn Gyrodyne rotor blade plans that was on their vwebsite. May I know how your current projects are going on
simi retired - hangar in Oxnard
IMG_0010.JPG
I was turbine powered in 1993 still turbine powered in 2019.
 
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