# Why battery-powered aircraft will never have significant range

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#### mcrae0104

##### Well-Known Member
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Log Member
In response to the Canadian winter images...
Hail on the plains of Canada (or Nebraska or Colorado or Kansas etc.) is not a freak incident--it's a regular occurrence, unlike the recent cold-weather event in Texas. Also, for the benefit of Al Gore and/or those who may not have experienced the joys of an actual winter, the images from @Dan Thomas are summer, not winter.

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#### rv7charlie

##### Well-Known Member
Not how it works in TX.... If you do a little searching online of most any quality news source, you'll see what went wrong.

#### EzyBuildWing

##### Well-Known Member
"Scrappy Paramotor Aircraft" has a MTOW thrust to weight ratio of approximately 1:1
Can do incredible super-tight-loops at almost zero-altitude........ swoops and soars like crazy!
Has a 38 HP 2-cylinder "Sky Engines 220" boxer-engine.
Maybe similar performance could be accomplished with electric..... well, for ten minutes anyway?

#### mcrae0104

##### Well-Known Member
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Not how it works in TX.... If you do a little searching online of most any quality news source, you'll see what went wrong.
This post is as unresponsive to #981 as post #979 was to #975. Your meaning is unclear; please be explicit if you intend to make some sort of political commentary.

To restate my objection, which is devoid of political perspective: 1) destructive hail happens on the plains (yes, it even works this way in TX, where I have experienced it) almost entirely in the summer, not the winter, as you suggest, and 2) comparing a hailstorm in the northern plains (a commonplace occurrence) to an outlier cold spell in Texas is like comparing a muggy day in Corpus Christi (commonplace) to 115 degree day someplace in Nunavut (outlier).

Perhaps you can clarify what you were implying regarding "quality news sources," but FAA AC00-6B is generally regarded as a reliable source, predating both Rupert Murdoch and Ted Turner, neither of whom is particularly regarded for his meteorological acumen.

#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
Hail in Calgary, Alberta, June 2020:

#### mrinnovation

HBA Supporter
Our team is working direct electron fusion, similar to K-capture. Power density will be in the 10KW/8CuFt/226Liters, weighing 25kg/55pounds. If cooling can be solved it will mean nearly unlimited flight/drives using easily obtainable fuel rods costing roughly $200 per year (when they need to be changed). This is probably more than I am legally able to say, but I figured it might give some hope to those who want to see the days of 1000hp cars with 1500 mile range, or 400hp electric planes with about the same 1500 mile range, without massive battery packs, in fact only ultracapacitor banks for burst current supply. If this technology had been worked on for the last 100 years we've all been building hotrods, then it would already be here with possibly even better power density than I talk about. #### rv6ejguy ##### Well-Known Member Our team is working direct electron fusion, similar to K-capture. Power density will be in the 10KW/8CuFt/226Liters, weighing 25kg/55pounds. If cooling can be solved it will mean nearly unlimited flight/drives using easily obtainable fuel rods costing roughly$200 per year (when they need to be changed). This is probably more than I am legally able to say, but I figured it might give some hope to those who want to see the days of 1000hp cars with 1500 mile range, or 400hp electric planes with about the same 1500 mile range, without massive battery packs, in fact only ultracapacitor banks for burst current supply. If this technology had been worked on for the last 100 years we've all been building hotrods, then it would already be here with possibly even better power density than I talk about.
Lots of technologies are being worked on but you'll have to show us actual working examples (flying in an airplane or running a car down the road) before it's meaningful.

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#### AJLiberatore

##### Well-Known Member
Enjoy the video in the link below.

If you do not know who Jagdeep Singh is or Sandy Munro due your research.

Sandy has a link to Gen-Av, go back and research the PAV Reports.

Solid State Batteries could be the game changer for Gen-Av. QuantamScape has mentioned aviation as a market and their Competitors SES and Solid Power I think have already experimented with Drones powered by their batteries.
Perhaps Sandy will interview the principles of these Solid State firms as well as others in the near future.

Briefly, energy densities north of 350 w/kg (380 to 400 often talked about) vs 250/260 w/kg which is the numbers used for current state of the art. Other Solid State benefits often discussed include less weight for the pack, with charge times < 15 minutes.

#### Map

##### Well-Known Member
I designed and built a single-seat electric vehicle some years ago and have driven it a lot of miles. Fits somewhere between a car and a bicycle. Recharge it from power produced by the solar panels on my roof. Plans are available.

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#### Dusan

##### Well-Known Member
It seems to me a lot of these batteries companies are built just for parting the not so savvy investors from their money. Not saying that Mr. Singh is a crook, but 'millions of test on our separator ... but we need more time ... next milestone 4 layers, .. then 8-10 layers, and by 2023 a few dozen layers and those are commercially relevant and then we can focus on building hundred of thousands cells .. ". Tesla success was based on common cells that are in every laptop. In business school I learned 'minimum viable product' and Mr. Singh's cells can be used for everything from flash-lights, phones, laptops .. whatever, Selling the things could not only bring in money to make investors happy, but also help development, creating a real world test and move forward by cyclic development. Focusing only on automotive is the wrong thing to do in my opinion. Anyway I hope I'm wrong and next month somebody comes up with a battery with 10 times more specific energy so the battery is no more a 'problem' for electric aviation.

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#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
Lots of technologies are being worked on but you'll have to show us actual working examples (flying in an airplane or running a car down the road) before it's meaningful.
Flying every day at Oshkosh for several hours. Then it will mean something.

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
If cooling can be solved it will mean (insert cure for the common cold)

This is probably more than I am legally able to say,
If funding could be solved, it will mean I can provide free flying lessons to every high school student in the world.

I checked with my team, and I am legally able to say that.

#### rv7charlie

##### Well-Known Member
The TX debacle was (and will be) caused by the state utility commission's single-minded focus on letting the utilities do whatever they please, and keeping TX totally isolated from the national power grid. They had the same problem about a decade ago; just not on quite so grand a scale. Wind turbines froze because the companies elected to not include freezing weather protections. Even natural gas supplies failed in many areas, because the companies made no provisions in the pipeline/delivery systems for freezing weather. Some of the 'lucky' ones who did have natural gas working during the freeze had their life savings (tens of \$thousands) wiped out in days, due to the gas companies upping their price per BTU almost hourly, and repeatedly charging those who were set up for automatic draft payments until their accounts were depleted.
Again, this wasn't a one-time thing; it's happened to TX in the recent past, and consumer advocates have been begging the TX government to fix the problem for years. About 90% of the problems, and losses to the people of TX, could have been avoided with what would have been considered the bare minimum of regulation in any other state.
My point is that yes, natural disasters can and do occur, but trusting corporations to 'do the right thing' is, well, let's just say, naive.

#### mrinnovation

##### Member
HBA Supporter
If funding could be solved, it will mean I can provide free flying lessons to every high school student in the world.

I checked with my team, and I am legally able to say that.
Cute. So happy to have such a smart and witty community to be a part of.

HBA Supporter

#### patrickrio

##### Well-Known Member
Cute. So happy to have such a smart and witty community to be a part of.
VB has exceptionally entertaining responses here.... A professional word wrangler.

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
The next few years could be really interesting, or really boring as all these promising energy storage solutions either arrive, or do not.
Only time and money will tell.

Tim

#### mrinnovation

##### Member
HBA Supporter
Like most commercial projects I am under an NDA to not disclose the details about the prototype.

#### Toobuilder

##### Well-Known Member
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Log Member
Like most commercial projects I am under an NDA to not disclose the details about the prototype.
Yet here you are, talking about the project.

Many people on this forum are bound by NDA's and are working on projects that would blow the internet up if found out - yet dont say a peep.

If you have something to "prove", then prove it. Otherwise you are just a dreamer with no actual prospects. To try keep your feet on both sides of the line is simply another form of trolling for attention.

"Without data, it's just whining"

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Cute. So happy to have such a smart and witty community to be a part of.
Yes, pleading guilty, I'm a smart a**. (For a living )

But, I ask that you look at it from the public's side as well as your own. Assuming you are a professional with any level of expertise, in almost any field, you certainly will have seen all manner of big claims, hyper-hyperbole, and grandstanding in that field. And you will have seen that it generates eye-rolling that is proportional to the size of the claims, and usually proportional to the square of really big bold claims that promise the moon.

In my lifetime only one guy ever actually promised the moon and delivered on the claim, and he got shot anyway.