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US Youth glider program like the Lithuanian one

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jedi

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towing by car has been used for non-engined gyro gliders to give tuition to gyro builders but that has died out because there are so many two seat gyros for training now. Winch launches for gliders is still used, but it is altitude limited; ie, the glider gets towed to about circuit height and has a very limited flight time, typically 20 minutes at best on the best kind of day. Winch launches are useful for ab-initio gliders like the original Grasshopper types so perhaps this could be considered for a Youth launch programme.
Just for the record, ground launch towing, auto or winch, does not need to be altitude limited.

A year or two ago paraglider pilots set a record by towing to 10,000 feet MSL in the Phoenix area via auto launch with payout winch. Paraglider maneuvers clinics frequently tow to 3,000 feet ALL (Above Lake Level) with boat tow and payout winch.

Circle or step tows are also common. Dan Bucanan does aerobatic hang glider airshows by towing back and forth (auto circle tows) off 4,500 foot paved runways.

From VB's post # 3 "They probably had some sort of clip, or attach point on the rope every 100 or 200 feet so that the gliders could easily clip in to whatever was the next upcoming attach point when it came by."

Mt climbers have hardware the will grab the rope at any point so the rope does not need a specific attach point. They are called an ascender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascender_(climbing) "An ascender is a device (usually mechanical) used for directly ascending a rope, or for facilitating protection with a fixed rope when climbing on very steep mountain terrain. "
 

Hot Wings

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From VB's post # 3 "They probably had some sort of clip, or attach point on the rope every 100 or 200 feet so that the gliders could easily clip in to whatever was the next upcoming attach point when it came by."
I've seen none video (can't find it again) where the tag lines were permanently attached to the main cable. They just cycled through the mechanism with the main cable.
 

Tam Dl

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Ascenders are difficult to release. They are better at pay in than pay out. A tool like a gri gri will lock but pay out. But all these things are designed for fat rope, at least 7mm.

There is a simple knot called a Munter Hitch that will snub and pay out. Not saying it is suitable for anything of this type, particularly if you have slick synthetic super line, but it is worth knowing in general
 

Riggerrob

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Great idea!
A great way to re-purpose old ultra-lights when parts are no longer available for their gasoline engines.
Speaking of gasoline ... that will only be viable for a few more years, then all those solar panels on hangar/warehouse roofs will become the primary source of power.
May I suggest bunch of bicycles to keep the rest of the class busy while their lone class-mate is flying? Maybe add stationary bicycles to re-charge winch batteries.
Why does this remind me of Boy Scouts, Hitler Youth, etc. with their bungee cords, running up and down short hills to burn off excess energy.
I like the idea of using a ground-bound simulator/stimulator to practice the basics of stick-and-rudder. When it is too windy to fly, they can still practice on a short-wing simulator/stimulator.
A triangle of winches would fit great in the in-field of all those British Commonwealth Air Training Plan airfields dotted across Canada.
With a triangle of winches, a student could fly 3 times before returning to home-plate. At worst, the triangle of winches speeds up the recovery process.

The first ground school only needs to be a day or two long to instill the basics of stick-and-rudder. Later ground school lessons can layer-on meteorology, theory of flight, model building, air regulations and civics. I will cheerfully teach the first civics lesson about who obscenely expensive it is to win a personal injury lawsuit.
 

Victor Bravo

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Great idea!
Yes, it is a great idea on many levels. There are a handful of downsides, but the positive outweighs the negative by 5-1 or more.

A great way to re-purpose old ultra-lights when parts are no longer available for their gasoline engines.
Brilliant ! You can report that idea to the police as having been stolen without remorse!

Why does this remind me of Boy Scouts, Hitler Youth, etc. with their bungee cords, running up and down short hills to burn off excess energy.
Bringing a youth glider training program to large scale was one of the very few good things that they can take credit for.

I like the idea of using a ground-bound simulator/stimulator to practice the basics of stick-and-rudder. When it is too windy to fly, they can still practice on a short-wing simulator/stimulator.
And get very useful training... and develop flight instinct... at pennies on the dollar.

A triangle of winches would fit great in the in-field of all those British Commonwealth Air Training Plan airfields dotted across Canada.
Unfortunately, that would result in a huge number of broken wingtips and tail surfaces from crosswind operations before the students were ready for it.
 

Riggerrob

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Dear Victor Bravo,
You make a good point about the dangers of towing with strong cross-winds.
Triangular flights along three winches would only be practical on calm days. When winds pick up, you merely use the second and third winches to ground-tow gliders back to the start point. With teenagers running alongside, steadying wingtips, they will get plenty of exercise and fresh air.
All that fresh air helps with COVID-era social-distancing.
 

IVAN99m

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Because of the Covid ,
One of you must Sit outside of the glider
And the other one inside😀
 

stanislavz

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I think, i still could find old magazine with loop winch used in school.

But today i think it is better to use just big remote controlled quad's. For 150 kg mtow and 15 L/D you need 10 kg of pull averaged.. At 40-60 km/h. Or 100N per 11-16.5 m/s Or just 1100-1650 watts of power..
 

stanislavz

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Some info is even online :


1606990654900.png

Write me if need you need more than online translation.
 

nestofdragons

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Yeah.
I didn't see how they limited the glider to 2 meters altitude at early training
The man of the winch controls the power of the pull. If airplane goes too high, less power. It is that easy. And ... if pupil doesn't listen to "max 2m high", he gets red buttocks, i think. That is due to sueing not possible in USA.
 

Riggerrob

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... Circle or step tows are also common. Dan Bucanan does aerobatic hang glider airshows by towing back and forth (auto circle tows) off 4,500 foot paved runways. ....
That reminds me of a gadget that I saw decades ago at a holiday camp in Bavaria. Their small lake had a circle of ropes and winches and they taught water-skiing.

Assuming that each leg of your triangular flying field is about 1,000 yards (1,000 metres) ... Doing this with a 3 kilometre rope and pulleys at each corner would require advance pilot skills ... but might be used to gain more altitude than you could on a 1 kilometre straight tow.

Wanders off mumbling to himself about patents and practicality ... mumbling ... wandering ... more mumbling ... more wandering ... more mumbling ... more wandering ...
 

stanislavz

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Dear stanislav,
A few European glider/sailplane clubs already use stationary electric winches.
Thanks, i know that. But if you want to learn, and keep kids at 3-15 meters level - you need kind of trolley to limit max rope length.

On other side - sorry, but 40-50kg wehicle with 5kw of power could be really done from off the shelf components.. Plus some remote or ar arduino auto pilot to go up wind only..
 

Victor Bravo

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The system used for this type of training will be 100% constrained and limited by the physical location and physical restrictions in each case.

The WW2 era training had large open fields and beautiful grass covered Bavarian hillsides to make use of. Large open fields set aside for this purpose. That is simply not the case today. Even the Post-WW2 European systems (like the Lithuanian video) had large open areas set aside.

If you wanted to do this today, at an airport in a large US city, you would have completely different parameters. If you wanted to do it in Southern California, you would have different options, and different options if you did it in Brazil or Antarctica.

I believe that a successful model for this type of training should be completely portable. Two pickup trucks should have everything needed to show up on any runway, or in any open field, or in the middle of a frozen solid lake in Minnesota... and be able to set up the low-altitude cable loop towing system within 30 minutes. The training gliders should be able to be trailered to this same place behind the two pickup trucks, and unfolded and ready for flight within the same 30 minutes.

The weight of the parked pickup trucks should be the only ground anchor used. No stakes pounded into the ground. Everything gets folded up, put away, and driven out of the training site leaving it the same as it was before.

THIS way, you stand a good chance of having the airport, the government, the land owner, farmer, county fair operator, etc. happy enough to have you back the next weekend.
 

IVAN99m

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The man of the winch controls the power of the pull. If airplane goes too high, less power. It is that easy. And ... if pupil doesn't listen to "max 2m high", he gets red buttocks, i think. That is due to sueing not possible in USA.
What kind of gliders they used?
Do you have a picture of the Glider?
 

Speedboat100

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American kids ought to learn to take off from a small catapult to get used to carrier take offs.
 

Hephaestus

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Kinda the theory behind my current 99lb primary glider project. Weight keeps the glider in the hang glider category (largely deregulated in Canada - not logbook time, but stick and rudder muscle memory practice that's better than simulators). Many of the glider clubs still have 'classic' US v8 powered winches tucked away in an outbuilding or storage building that can be recommissioned fairly easily. Although nowadays an electric winch makes a bit more sense if one was building a 'new' system.

The Start & Flug Hippie has been a large basis of my project. Been working on wing construction lately trying to get the right mix of durability, weight, cost and ease of construction. It's that last one that's being the biggest challenge. After remembering the Rohr EPS wing and mentioning it in the monolithic block thread - I think we might be re-examining that option - the service life isn't going to be years in the intended application...

If you do work off truck mounted winches (which I believe is a little more involved than parking a truck - sliding drag resistance isn't THAT much (think 1/3 truck weight) probably requires at least some wheel chock style ground anchors to 'bite' into the ground) you at least have the option of repositioning into an area where some weaker ridge lift or some stable thermals can be found nearby for more enhanced training activities.
 

stanislavz

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Rohr EPS wing and mentioning it in the monolithic block thread
Stay way from eps in any load bearing application.. One of the easiest to make wings looks like lak-16 - sandwitch construction without ribs or normal spar. Just skin is enought on such a low speed wing.
 

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