Jungster 1 & 2 aircraft

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Never mind Dominic. I researched it and the Verner does present a different approach to oil return and supply. Where there is a will there is a way. Couple thoughts. People have done aerobatics and flown inverted with just an inverted fuel system. The Navy used the N3N-3 for a primary trainer and later after the Stearman (N2S) became the favorite the Navy still used the N3N-3 for teaching and maintaining currency in Spinning inverted. The N3N-3 had a pressure carburetor for inverted fuel but it did not have inverted oil. Regardless they used it to fly inverted but kept an eye on the oil pressure. I have no idea how long the Verner would maintain pressure with the the supply interrupted. That could be overcome pretty easily, but the gravity return that the Verner uses could also be done. You would need another breather which would become the oil return while inverted. ??? I was thinking that your engine centroid would be closer to the firewall with the Verner, but you would need to add an oil tank forward of the firewall and that would probably keep the engine far enough forward for the CG to work out. There has to be a clever way to operate an inverted oil system for the Verner. I am with you, the Verner would really add to the airplane. You have the advantage it appears of building new wings and perhaps you might consider rounding your wingtips more, like many of the Jungmeisters. It may reduce your roll rate a little bit but it might give you a very slight increase in wing area and aspect ratio, which would give it just a little more float without modifying anything more than the tip. Here is a link to a WWII Navy film about inverted spins in the N3N-3.
I had a friend who flew all the Navy Grumman Cats during WWII including the Bearcat. He said every time you checked in at a new base, you were required to go out and get requalified in inverted spins. And he said there was always some poor instructor whose only job was to do inverted spins, and it was always, always in in a N3N-3. Thanks for the compliment on the Livery.
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Works just fine without the battery. No alternator or generator. Only a start button and starter solenoid wired into the circuit. The little battery pack clips to the start circuit leads which are on the side of the cockpit. The batt has a built in fuse. I unclip the little batt after start and stow it away. Someone asked if it weighs just a pound and I'd say that's about right.
 

Dominic Eller

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
199
Great old vid! You certainly have some great aircraft and experience 👍
I love the Bearcat, if I could choose any WW2 fighter that’s the one I want.
Verner used to make a 148hp 7 cylinder SI, this would have been ideal, injected, lite weight. Now they make the 7u at only 124hp carbureted.
The 9 cylinder is well powerful 158 hp and 237# installed but now only carbureted too. Steve Wolf likes his earlier injected 9 cylinder and says it feels like 180hp lycombing.
I think we would need a 3 blade prop if we went the 9 due to gear length. I think a new extended gear is on the cards at some stage. Most likely fly with the gear it has but I think longer and wider is the way to go. The other limiting factor for Verner is snap rolls, they don’t recommend it due to crankshaft forces, I do want to snap the Jungster as that’s what the Jungmeisters claim to fame is and I’ve heard the Jungster 1 has its big brothers snap ability, and your triple snap seems to support that too.
What do you think about all that?
the other non Lycombing option is the UL power 6 cylinder aerobatic engines


, I’ve read and heard both good and mixed reviews on the smaller ones but I’ve not spoken to anyone regarding aerobatics with UL 390iSA 160hp or the 520iSA 200hp they both come in significantly lighter than an O320.
Has anyone heard or have experience with aerobatics and these engines ?
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
My buddy who flew the cats said the Bearcat was his favorite also. But for aerobatics he told me he liked the Wildcat best. Last time I flew with him was in a Yak 52. He said it flew a lot like the Wildcat. He left the pattern 3 weeks ago at the age of 97. He loved doing aerobatics like I do also. The original Great Lakes were a real pleasure to fly as well. You definitely want to be able to snap it. Doubles are fun as the second snap is faster than the first. So until you find out different maybe the Verner is not the answer. None of the old smaller radials are anywhere near light enough. Staying light is a good thing. If you want to do triple snaps, let me ask you if you have already finished your vertical fin and horizontal? If they are still unskinned you might want to add fittings to the vertical front spar and same for the horizontal stab just like the rear braces, with an additional strap across the bottom of the fuselage. It would be easy and it would certainly strengthen the tail. I will ask Hap Pool who built the Denver airplane if they did anything to beef up the engine mount attachments to the fuselage. It used an O-320 and a metal prop. We never had any issues with the airframe or engine. We did not have a starter. We also flew it inverted using a PS5-C pressure carb. Have you watched Dave Martin snapping his Jungmeister? So effortless. I am afraid you are likely needing to use an O-320. You could bump it up to 160 hp. Perhaps Verner will have a stronger crank by the time you need the engine. I would try to keep the gear short if possible. Longer gear is going to add weight and raise the CG, making a dicey airplane even dicier. Don't think the wider stance is going to make a huge difference, but the longer gear will screw up your forward vision and you may need a bigger elevator to get the airplane into a 3 point attitude for landing. I am sure you will make a wise choice. I could be wrong. Try to do your flying from grass or dirt.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
13,996
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
My buddy who flew the cats said the Bearcat was his favorite also.
Had a friend who was a test pilot in the Navy starting in 1942. He flew every fighter / attack aircraft from the P-39 / F4F era up through the F-94. He didn’t like the F8F, and he really disliked the F7F. His all-time favorite, for flying qualities, was the Single Place AD, aka SPAD.
Have you watched Dave Martin snapping his Jungmeister?
Yup, and he does a really good job. But Bevo was the best of all time.


BJC
 
Last edited:

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Agreed! The summer Bevo was killed, I was working with Mel Baron who was good friends with Bevo. Was your friend General Marion Carl, USMC?
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Thanks, I just finished reading General Carl's book Pushing the Envelope. Good read. Carl probably knew your friend. General Carl was a leading Pacific Ace. He was pulled out of combat for a War Bond tour or he might have become the leading Pacific fighter ace. Because he had 2 years of college majoring in aeronautical engineering, his next assignment was to Pax River where he became a test pilot. He ended up a 2 star having a long career in Marine aviation. He flew everything in the inventory including helicopters. Good book.
 

BJC

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Messages
13,996
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
IIRC, my friend was at Pax River for his entire time during the WW II.

Years later, he had the canopy of an F-94 shatter at 40,000 feet. Both of his ear drums were ruptured, so the Navy made him a helicopter pilot. He flew some highly publicized rescue missions following a typhoon. He never was in combat.


BJC
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Dominic......I asked Fred (Hap) Pool what he remembered of beefing up the Jungster? He said as far as he can remember, the additional brace wires on the tail were all they did.
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Dominic or any one else,....feel free to use my Livery if you wish. I saw the movie Rocketeer and saw the black and white Gee Bee at the end and I copped it. I almost put the racing number 5 on my fuselage, also but then thought the Tophatter Top Hat would look good. Here is a link for a source of every unit and squadron insignia. They produce them up to nearly 3 foot sizes in some decals. Very easy to apply. They send directions using soapy water.
Red and white Gee Bee scheme with red gear legs might look good. I started out with white gear but decided to make them black. I think on the Jungsters the dark gear looks best. Of course you need wheel pants in white and red or whatever. If you ever want to add ribs to your gear legs let me know. It is very easy and light and then your gear will look more like the Buckers. Military Decals & Military Stickers - Made in USA, Largest Inventory Yes I know most Buckers did not have wheel pants, but the Gee Bees looked mighty good!
 

Attachments

Dominic Eller

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
199
So many good talking points! Need to get you into my garage and crack a beer or 2 😂
We are looking at reproducing the original livery that Dorothy Patrick did but yours is just so dam lovely.
A28957B8-86E0-4A13-B5F6-12BD07BC897E.jpeg57ED02C9-67C6-4D0E-97BE-B003475CA61F.jpeg
The Bucker and Funk Jungmeister is awesome! If I had the money I’d be there in a heart beat! I did watch another vid of it flying and reading some comments the rules in the country of construction prohibits aerobatics in UL aircraft.
I must contact Bucker and Funk and ask what they know of aerobatics with the Verner engines. I can’t see why the would put a radial with a weak crank in a replica Jungmeister.

I would like to see details on your landing gear streamlining please.
Good point re the gear length. Although Jerry Kerr promotes the slightly wider/ taller gear stance as a plus in ground handling.

It’s a bit late for extra tail plane wires now. Single snaps will be fine 😁 I have used .090 4130 instead of the .065 for the forward fin mount as Jerry pointed out his cracked. The Cabanes and struts are also .049 instead of the .035 as suggested also. Bit of weight increase but in a good area.
I’ve changed to the double landing wires also.


A lightened Titan 340 with 170 hp
might be a possibility…… and using your jump pack power supply saves the battery weight.

The panel is where I’ll be saving a great deal of weight using Kanardia indu round combo and the digi engine monitor. Should have the entire panel being only 2-3# !
I will be very interested to see what the bones weigh when I get it together again soon, should be able to make a reasonable estimate of the final weight then.

Cheers for all your input, keep it coming 👍
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Looking at the Dottie Patrick main gear it does look a might more squatty than mine. So I will measure mine next time out and give you the dimensions.
The woodwork and finish of all the parts you have posted are without peer. You are going to have a fine machine when completed for sure.

You talk about the tail bracket that bolts to the vertical fin spar. On mine I found it with nothing holding the front of the fin other than two pieces of aluminum L-channel bolted to the rear bulkhead and then bolted to the fin leading edge which was nothing but quarter round pine. Nothing was attached to the spar. Go figure. At that point I bought a set of drawings and removed all the fabric fairings and wood side skins. I found a number of issues and injuries which had not been dealt with correctly or at all. It was pretty horrifying. I remember the seller doing a low altitude roll in it the day I bought it. I am convinced that RK deigned a clever structure with which is held together by fabric, and wires. I am very glad I took the airplane down to bare bones.

I should have taken some pictures of adding the ribs to the gear leges but unfortunately I did not. I will share a rough drawing. I made the decision to do it after I had covered and painted my gear. Rather than tear off the fabric and start from scratch using welded on tabs or some sort of clamps to attach the ribs to, I thought that since these ribs are not structural, why not glue them directly to the fabric and then cover them with an added layer of fabric on the outside of the gear leg. I made the ribs from 1/8 inch Birch ply, and the base that each is glued to for stability out of 1/16 inch Birch ply. I glued the rib and base plate together using aircraft epoxy. The base plates are attached to the fabric with very sticky 3m double sided tape. After that, apply self stick fabric chafe tape to the top of the ribs. Then you cover the the outer side of the gear with Stitts or Ceconite again. I used a heat gun to shrink the fabric. I did not glue the fabric to the ribs. I used super seam cement on the outer edges of the gear legs only. I suppose you could apply this process to both sides of the gear leg if you were so inclined.
 

Attachments

Dominic Eller

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
199
Thanks for the compliment. Yes these gear legs are also made to the plans length for 600x6 wheels and has 500x5 on it. I think putting the taller tires on will help AOA on ground and prop clearance a little.
Your gear fairing idea post cover seems like a winner to me.
I have the opportunity to do something before covering so might weld tangs on to bolt wood to or just epoxy wood to prepped steel…. Or something else.
I’ll get these cabanes finished and then move on to other things 👍
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
It may be that her gear is just softer and pushed apart more making it look shorter. A28957B8-86E0-4A13-B5F6-12BD07BC897E.jpegIMG_3546.jpg I will put your pic of hers and mine on here so we can compare. I think adding the ribs prior to cover is more original and has the added advantage that you can make them symmetrical. I wonder how much lift gear legs generate?
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Here is a link to a neat video on the construction of the Jungman.
I hope this is the correct video. If not I will send the correct one.
 

Fighting 14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
203
Dom, was this your airplane? Do you mind telling me how you found it? This a quote from an article about Dottie Patrick;
The plane, however, flew beautifully, and she eventually sold it to a man in Tennessee. When he died, it was purchased by a man in California. After he died, the plane was sold to a man in New Zealand, and that is where it remains today.

“I would like to go down there and see what they did with it,” she said. “It was purchased by a general. He took pictures of it on a freighter.”
 

Dominic Eller

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
199
I’ve read that article too 👍
We have even had a video call showing the rebuild with Dottie on her 94th birthday, arranged by her friend George who tracked the plane here to NZ.
My buddy bought it in the states flew it around a bit and brought it back in the early 2000s I think, he’s not a general, I believe he bought it from a Major though.
It never flew here. I spotted it tucked away in a little shed and asked about re building it. It was yellow when it arrived here. I found and interesting pic of what could have been the same one at a Reno race sometime after it was painted, but the date caption doesn’t quite fit as it would have only just been completed that same year. Could be a mistake in the date or maybe the wrong pic attributed to the caption as the Reg and s/n are correct.
90DC0703-BEE2-48F4-92A3-956FE30DEE8B.jpeg300559E7-4858-433F-BE0D-2C0457C5909E.jpeg96C7A869-2C15-44BA-AA89-C4C33EFA68E3.jpeg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TFF
Top