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challenger_II

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Jul 15, 2009
Messages
320
Location
Fisher County, Tx. USA
Depends on One's pocketbook. 5" x 15ft Kolb tubes cost $500 each. Then there is shipping. 5" Kolb tube is 1.15# per foot: a well-designed steel tube space frame can be built lighter.
At the end of the day, it all falls back on what the Original Builder prefers to work with.
 

philr

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Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
Here are the latest. Pylon500 I checked the numbers and we can move the spar back to the 25% point and use .016 sheet where you suggest. Projected weight/ wing panel with out fittings is 24.7 lbs before covering of course. I will post a picture of a different aileron setup and I would like feedback on it.

RIBLETT 30_615 25% DTUBE.jpgDIFF AILERON.jpg
 

radfordc

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Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,442
Yes I think it will be a blast to fly! The all flying stab is something I always wanted to try it will have a light trim tab to provide control input feedback and i would like to make it in flight adjustable. How many sq ft of rudder and fin do you think is right? The wing span is 30 ft. Also considering making the tail boom longer.
Victor Bravo stated that most don't appreciate how hard it is to make a truly legal Part 103. I think you are starting out with a somewhat wrong attitude...instead of thinking of things you want to add to the plane you should be thinking of what you can get rid of that isn't absolutely needed. I fly a plane with a full flying stabilizer. No trims tab, but I do need to vary pressure on the stick depending on airspeed.
 

Victor Bravo

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Jul 30, 2014
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KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Definitely check with a proper engineer, but I believe that the "vertical axis" on your spar in Post #43 needs to not be quite vertical. If I recall, there is a slight forward load vector - when you load the wing up near its design strength - and that the spar beam has to be aligned at or near that angle to give you the very very maximum strength when you are counting grams and ounces. Most airplanes don't do this because it is easier and less time consuming to not build in that slight angle.

Or in other words, when your aircraft weight is so critical that you have finally gotten to the point where you really are picking the fly s**t out of the pepper... the spar is tilted a degree or two forward at the top.

But that entire idea and postulation MUST be verified and quantified by a trained engineer before you move forward with the design.
 

philr

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Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
Victor Bravo stated that most don't appreciate how hard it is to make a truly legal Part 103. I think you are starting out with a somewhat wrong attitude...instead of thinking of things you want to add to the plane you should be thinking of what you can get rid of that isn't absolutely needed. I fly a plane with a full flying stabilizer. No trims tab, but I do need to vary pressure on the stick depending on airspeed.
Yes definitely did think of that. I could always add a sheet metal (bendable) tab to trim it like my Dads Taylor Craft had. Do you have any pics of your flying stab I am always looking for example of them.
 

1Bad88

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Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
619
Location
Bellville, TX
The tail looks a little on the short side to me. It could just be the pictures. I love the design though!
 

philr

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Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
The tail looks a little on the short side to me. It could just be the pictures. I love the design though!
I just post a link to prelim plans above have a look it is over 16' long similar to Hipps J3 Kitten and the Eagle XL
 

philr

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Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
4 oz/ yard would be about 3.89 lbs per wing for covering & paint. Do you think that is reasonable for light fabric and latex paint 2 coats like the Legal Eagle?
If you weren't concerned about weight for an extra 12 lbs per wing you could sheet the whole wing in .016 :( but we are aiming for legal part 103.
 

pylon500

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Dec 26, 2003
Messages
383
Location
Taree Airport Australia
4 oz/ yard would be about 3.89 lbs per wing for covering & paint. Do you think that is reasonable for light fabric and latex paint 2 coats like the Legal Eagle?
If you weren't concerned about weight for an extra 12 lbs per wing you could sheet the whole wing in .016 :( but we are aiming for legal part 103.
We in Australia have a little more weight to play with, so when I rebuilt my earlier described wing for use on my next ultralight, I took that 12 pounds and fully sheeted the wing. Little bit of weight, but saved on the cost and labour of fabric and dopes, then painted with cheap house paint.
Looked at your aileron idea, and while I like the frieze concept, I've never been a fan of the sharp leading edge, but that's a personal preference.
Your earlier centre pivot aileron looks awkward initially, unless you use a thin wall alloy tube, although you then have to figure out how to get the hinge points in there... 🤔
Don't know if I'd try the Lazair method of only being supported at the ends for larger flaps and ailerons, and definitely not a full span aileron, although I'm sure something could be dreamed up for a remote hinge.
My initial wing just used the old top hinged barn door (Piper Cherokee, most Cessna's), but I sloped the rear spar and tried to keep the aileron spar vertical to cut down on some of the adverse yaw.
barn_door_hinge.png
 

philr

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Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
We in Australia have a little more weight to play with, so when I rebuilt my earlier described wing for use on my next ultralight, I took that 12 pounds and fully sheeted the wing. Little bit of weight, but saved on the cost and labour of fabric and dopes, then painted with cheap house paint.
Looked at your aileron idea, and while I like the frieze concept, I've never been a fan of the sharp leading edge, but that's a personal preference.
Your earlier centre pivot aileron looks awkward initially, unless you use a thin wall alloy tube, although you then have to figure out how to get the hinge points in there... 🤔
Don't know if I'd try the Lazair method of only being supported at the ends for larger flaps and ailerons, and definitely not a full span aileron, although I'm sure something could be dreamed up for a remote hinge.
My initial wing just used the old top hinged barn door (Piper Cherokee, most Cessna's), but I sloped the rear spar and tried to keep the aileron spar vertical to cut down on some of the adverse yaw.
View attachment 112219
I am planning on a 82" aileron. Do you think it needs a middle hinge? My first kick at the can was a complicated z shape false spar with the hinge on top sort of like your last drawing but with the red line part of the spar to close the gap. Anyway too complex to explain and most would have a hard time bending that first idea I had. The design came from an Ultravia Pelican Club I had.
 

philr

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Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
One could use Junkers ailerons, and solve a few build issues, plus have better roll response at the slow speeds this bird will be flying at.
I am sure that could work though my one reason not to is that I want the wings on and off in 10 minutes for transport. With the configuration of this design folding wings aren't really an option.
 

philr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
We in Australia have a little more weight to play with, so when I rebuilt my earlier described wing for use on my next ultralight, I took that 12 pounds and fully sheeted the wing. Little bit of weight, but saved on the cost and labour of fabric and dopes, then painted with cheap house paint.
Looked at your aileron idea, and while I like the frieze concept, I've never been a fan of the sharp leading edge, but that's a personal preference.
Your earlier centre pivot aileron looks awkward initially, unless you use a thin wall alloy tube, although you then have to figure out how to get the hinge points in there... 🤔
Don't know if I'd try the Lazair method of only being supported at the ends for larger flaps and ailerons, and definitely not a full span aileron, although I'm sure something could be dreamed up for a remote hinge.
My initial wing just used the old top hinged barn door (Piper Cherokee, most Cessna's), but I sloped the rear spar and tried to keep the aileron spar vertical to cut down on some of the adverse yaw.
View attachment 112219
How does this look?2 AILERON.jpg
 

challenger_II

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Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
320
Location
Fisher County, Tx. USA
Explain your reasoning as to why a wing with Junkers ailerons would be more difficult to remove/install than a wing with conventional ailerons, please. I may be overlooking something.

QUOTE="philr, post: 601789, member: 104856"]
I am sure that could work though my one reason not to is that I want the wings on and off in 10 minutes for transport. With the configuration of this design folding wings aren't really an option.
[/QUOTE]
 

philr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
Explain your reasoning as to why a wing with Junkers ailerons would be more difficult to remove/install than a wing with conventional ailerons, please. I may be overlooking something.

QUOTE="philr, post: 601789, member: 104856"]
I am sure that could work though my one reason not to is that I want the wings on and off in 10 minutes for transport. With the configuration of this design folding wings aren't really an option.
[/QUOTE]
Most likely I am the greenhorn here so this is only my perception that removing to store the wing in a trailer and reinstalling repeatedly might lead to damage since the junkers aileron isn't inline with the wing. Maybe not so.
 

challenger_II

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
320
Location
Fisher County, Tx. USA
Consider this: Each wing cell /aileron type will have its own set of mouse traps to deal with detachment/re-attachment, and storage. With the Junkers wing, you could have some pink foam insulation boards cut to slide between wing and aileron, and clamp in place, holding the aileron in a fixed position.

It is, after all, your aircraft, and your decision. I was making a suggestion.

Most likely I am the greenhorn here so this is only my perception that removing to store the wing in a trailer and reinstalling repeatedly might lead to damage since the junkers aileron isn't inline with the wing. Maybe not so.
[/QUOTE]
 

philr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2020
Messages
60
Explain your reasoning as to why a wing with Junkers ailerons would be more difficult to remove/install than a wing with conventional ailerons, please. I may be overlooking something.

QUOTE="philr, post: 601789, member: 104856"]
I am sure that could work though my one reason not to is that I want the wings on and off in 10 minutes for transport. With the configuration of this design folding wings aren't really an option.
[/QUOTE]
Another question how would you like to build a junkers aileron. Here is a Avid type I think it's going to be heavier too?
1624391866740.png
 
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