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fuse welding

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The strength of MIG is that you seldom burn through. The risk is cold welds.

The Pitts S-1 fuselage I'm working on had some bits gas welded and they didn't look pretty so I had a TIG welder re-do them. One of my A&P friends inspected it yesterday and gave the thumbs up. There are about 50 bits I tack welded in place with Gas, for completion with TIG.

So with Gas you get good heat penetration but a risk of burn through.

You might try some sample welds with MIG, then re-melt the bead with gas to ensure adequate heat penetration. The MIG welded beads would need to be small enough that Gas would melt into the parent metal. If your sample pieces pass muster then you know which way to go.
 
Ok, great. Thank you guys for the response. After some investigation online, gas welding, or OA looks fun and inexpensive. My choice is to order some Chromo sample packs, or end cuts from Aircraft spruce and have at it with the Mig ;D Then I may pick up a starter OA set and have at it some more. Either way, it will be fun to experiment and see the results. I think it would be nice to be able to use both.

Funny thing the last couple of days ... I have completely gone through my garage (Hanger!?) in preperation for the this. The wife is supportive so far, so lets see how long she can hang in there ::)

Jason
 
Hey guys,

I found a TIG Buzz Box kit at Aircraft Spruce, i.e., using my lincoln mig box to Tig weld. Anyone used this?? I had decided to Gas weld, but the price is the same for the Gas and Tig kit ... so now I am curious.

Again, I am proficient at Mig .. little gas, no Tig.

Hope to get some opinions on this ... :)

Jason
 
Found a neat buzzbox TIG tutorial here: http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62250

Now all you have to do is solve the eternal conflict about the need - or NOT - to stress relieve TIG airframe weldments. There's no middle ground, the arguments are either 100% YES or 100% NO, and I've seen many angry comments on the subject. ::) I guess people "know what they know".

The guy who posted the tutorial obviously knows TIG very well. Good looking welds.

Tom
 
40 years now welding, with 30 of those years welding with TIG, I stress relieve my welds, and have never had a broken weld............Ed
 
Have to agree with Ed. It appears the TIG weld heat is very localized. I'd stress relieve the welds.

Tom
 
n3480h said:
Found a neat buzzbox TIG tutorial here: http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62250

Now all you have to do is solve the eternal conflict about the need - or NOT - to stress relieve TIG airframe weldments. There's no middle ground, the arguments are either 100% YES or 100% NO, and I've seen many angry comments on the subject. ::) I guess people "know what they know".

The guy who posted the tutorial obviously knows TIG very well. Good looking welds.

Tom

Hmm .. very cool post, though he mentions it needs to be a DC buzzbox. OR, maybe tap into the power lugs in the Mig machine to use the TIG set up. AND he has not done that yet .... I just want to build an airplane, not necassarily experiment with the electronics of my Mig welder .. Yikes :-\ But Wow he had some gorgeous welds ... very impressed.

Jason
 
As others mentioned stress relief is a bit of a "religious" topic on the web. I have a Miller TIG welder, so I asked them. Specifically for the thin walled chrome-moly tubing we are using they said stress relief wasn't required on thicknesses less than .125, just let it air cool.
 
I am a new member and don't even have an airframe at this point, but what I do have is 3+ decades holding a welding torch of one kind or another. My experience spans from fillet brazing 4130 steel tube bicycle frames, tig welding the same frames, tig welding aluminum bicycle frames and tig welding titanium bicycle frames, and tig and mig welding 304 stainless steel sheet and tube. I can tell you with assurance that gas welding the airframe is fine. Do what most of the people recommended, which is namely practicing a lot on stuff that doesn't bear a lot of load before you go onto the critical airframe. Once you feel like you've got the hang of it, do the critical stuff.

The first step to any good weld is a really good fit up of the joints. Think of the welds as just glue made of similar material. What you want the welds to do is transmit the stresses going through the airframe without becoming a riser for them. If the tube fit up is good (as in about .005"-020" gap) all around when you make your tacks you've got the basis for a good joint. Sloppier joints are more easier dealt with using a gas welding process as you can fill it in with the rod material a bit easier.

A good way to think about the weld strength is to apply the weakest link notion. The joints concentrate the highest stress loads, everyone will agree with that. If your welds are less strong than the tubes they connect and the loads on the joint come up to the point of yield of the tubes, then your joint is going to fail at the welds. So how strong should the welds be? Well, that E70-S2 weld wire someone mentioned earlier has about 2/3 the tensile and yield strengths of 4130, so whatever the tube thickness is you should be about twice as thick with your weld bead. Once you’re able to complete a uniform weld (remember, a thin or gapped portion of weld bead will be the stress riser) that’s about twice as thick as the tube you’re down the road.

Notice I didn’t mention gas or tig on that last paragraph? That’s because either is just fine, both will work, but in both cases you need to observe the size of the weld bead. Full penetration, twice as thick.

Do you need to anneal or stress relieve the welds? Gas welding: No. The time it takes for a skilled welder to create that weld will almost be twice as long as with a tig welding process. The tube soaks up this heat and it travels down the tube, expanding the heat-affected zone by a notable margin. Remember that the load stress is concentrated at the joint. A joint with a relatively large heat affected area has a longer transition between full strength tube and softer annealed tube. This long transition virtually eliminates the stress riser. With tig welding, at least in the hands of a skilled welder, the total heat the joint absorbs is far less, and the heat affected area is also far less, and therefore the transition between full strength tube and a softer annealed tube is much more abrupt. IE, a stress riser. In this case some stress relieving torch application is a really good idea.

My comments on mig are this: Yes, it surely can be done. But you need to know what you’re doing. You need full penetration of the weld. It’s easy to create a nice looking mig weld that doesn’t penetrate to the root. That is a weak weld. With practice, yes, you can surely do all the joints with mig process. But practice is the key. And like tig, you’d probably want to stress relieve it afterwards.

We never used mig process on bicycles simply because the welds were too large. Too large meant too heavy. Bicycles are models of weight paring. Grams count. That’s why fillet brazing virtually disappeared: Too heavy. But it made a great joint. Everything annealed nicely as with gas welding, and with full penetration and a root thickness of 2-3 times the steel it created a fail proof joint.

And as others commented: Never quench a weld, and no, you don’t need to pre-heat the joints for any of the weld processes being considered here. The tubes absorb the heat quickly and you don’t lock in the stresses as you would with thicker material that takes longer to heat.

So if I were you, and I was a novice, I’d definitely gas weld it. It’s hard to deny the success of many thousands of airframes built this way. If you were a skilled tig welder, use that method. Then stress relieve the critical joint areas that see lots of load. If you mig lots of tubing all day long and knew the process well, then by all means do that. And stress relieve it as above. If you were chasing the grams, then tig process is without question the way to go. With excellent tube fit up in the joints you can create a uniform weld that in the end will be the lightest of all, and as strong as necessary. But at the end of the day, done well none of these process are going to lead to a bad outcome.

Final note: I’m well aware I’m leaving some stuff out here (like the relatively minor but notable differences in joint strength between tig and gas welded joints, and the finer points of stress relieving a joint), but even if I included it all the advice I gave would be the same. The points others made about the cost of a decent tig machine vs an oxy/acetylene rig (easily found used on the craigslist or at your local flea market) are completely valid also.

Good Luck!

Gary Gable
 
"A good way to think about the weld strength is to apply the weakest link notion. The joints concentrate the highest stress loads, everyone will agree with that. If your welds are less strong than the tubes they connect and the loads on the joint come up to the point of yield of the tubes, then your joint is going to fail at the welds. So how strong should the welds be? Well, that E70-S2 weld wire someone mentioned earlier has about 2/3 the tensile and yield strengths of 4130, so whatever the tube thickness is you should be about twice as thick with your weld bead. Once you’re able to complete a uniform weld (remember, a thin or gapped portion of weld bead will be the stress riser) that’s about twice as thick as the tube you’re down the road."

Thanks Gary this is a point I had not heard before and will help me pick up welding technique in the near future. ;)
-Pete

 
I seldom have experience or knowledge to add to what I learn from this site, and have not started an airframe yet, however on the topic of welding I do have a little experience. Having equipment to do all three, MIG, TIG, and OA and having built 100+ race cars of many types from both 4130 and mild steel, I will without a doubt use OA on 99% of a Sonerai, if I do build one. I have experience with MIG welding thin tubing, and this would be easier and faster, but I would want a smaller weld. I am not as skilled at TIG and I would not want to invest the extra time when a nice OA weld has proven to fill the need.

IMHO

I would like to add, thanks to all I follow on the site and I may, MAY, get to the flyin, and look forward to meeting some of you.
 
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