Cantilever parasol wings?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by cluttonfred, Mar 11, 2019.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Mar 11, 2019 #1

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    According to Eric Clutton, FRED's parasol wing is essentially cantilever. The two inverted V "flying wires" are there to brace against the twisting imparted on the wing/cabane fittings when using the ailerons. Then I stumbled across this photo of Fokker V.40, a one-off prototype sport plane based on the WWI D.VIII fighter with just a 35 hp Anzani engine. That got me thinking about applying this Fokker-style cantilever parasol wing and strut arrangement to a small homebuilt. It seems like a great solution for a small single-seater in which the wing could be built dead straight (no dihedral or sweep) and in one piece. What do you all think...pros, cons, cool, goofy?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    Battler Britton and erkki67 like this.
  2. Mar 11, 2019 #2

    billyvray

    billyvray

    billyvray

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    687
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Newnan, GA
    cluttonfred likes this.
  3. Mar 11, 2019 #3

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    Cool models, very doable construction even if you'd have to basically calculate everything from scratch. Here is a little more info, another pic, and a 3-view.

    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/law1/fokv40.html
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    erkki67 likes this.
  4. Mar 11, 2019 #4

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2015
    Messages:
    913
    Likes Received:
    580
    Location:
    Uncasville, CT
    Shoot, I feel like I could build that over a long weekend if all the parts were cutout already. And the Verner 3V is the right size for sure.
     
    Tiger Tim likes this.
  5. Mar 12, 2019 #5

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    5,664
    Likes Received:
    4,560
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    Baslee already offers a tube and rivet (fuselage) for a 3/4 scale D-8. So reducing the same fuselage down a little more to the correct size for this replica can't be much work at all. All the proportions and gusset locations are done. The Baslee D-8 is apparently capable of meeting Part 103 (according to their website... no idea if this is easily accomplished). But their D-8 is sized for 60HP engines, so shrinking it a little bit (for the 3V) seems like the fuselage would be lighter by some amount even if the tube dameters and wall thicknesses were the same.

    Baslee already has a workable tail section, landing gear, and cabane layout for this.

    Now, take one of Fritz' quick-built wooden Ranger wings, either all wood or wood with the foam/wood capstrip ribs. If the Fokker Sport is a constant chord wing then it gets even easier and faster.

    Your 3 cylinder engine is of course ideal, and adds a tremendous amount of nostalgia and COOL factor.

    Now here's my big Macchiavellian psych warfare deal-closer, to get you completely hooked and reeled in on this: It would create another entry in the delightful market niche created by the Flitzer biplane, and it would attract the same type of builder/owner/customer. An entire "lost history finally revealed" story line can be created like they did with the Flitzer.

    But your little Fokker would have a big competitive advantage over the Flitzer: It would be far less daunting and time-consuming of a project, thanks to the more modern and faster construction methods of the tube and gusset fuselage and Fritz' QB wing.
     
    Battler Britton likes this.
  6. Mar 12, 2019 #6

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,234
    Likes Received:
    883
    Location:
    Rochester, NY, USA
    There are two versions of the Baslee 3/4 scale dVIII. Long & short wing. And a new 100% scale version. Contact the designer for details.

    Should be as simple as designing new engine mounts and cleaning up the firewall. Power should be about perfect.

    The Airdrome versions are not, however, cantilever winged. The 3/4 scale has wing struts. Not sure about the new one.
     
  7. Mar 12, 2019 #7

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    I really like the idea of a fictional post-WWI Dutch sport plane back story for a parasol design in the spirit of the Flitzer but easier and cheaper to build. I see the appeal of bolted/riveted aluminum tube and gusset construction but I'd still be tempted to go with welded 4130 steel tube fuselage and wood wings all covered in fabric. If Ed Fisher could do the Raceair Skylite at Part 103 weight with a 4130 fuselage then a plane about 200 lb heavier should be no problem.

    Start with the V.40, enlarge and simplify the wing further (untapered spar, straight ailerons), use a much larger rudder perhaps with an anti-servo tab though I'd explore stiff rudder springs instead for simplicity. Initial engine options could be 35-45 hp four-strokes so the 42 hp Verner 3VW or a 45 hp 1200 cc cut-case half VW would work. Those old Anzanis turned only about 1300 rpm so the props were huge, the 2500 rpm Verner or 3600 rpm VW would have smaller props so the main gear could be shorter, the wheels smaller. Build it to European single-seat microlight gross weight (315 kg/694 lb gross with a ballistic chute, 300 kg 661 lb without) and it should do fine as a fun flier on that power.
     
    Battler Britton likes this.
  8. Mar 12, 2019 #8

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    Armchair Mafia Conspirator HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,803
    Likes Received:
    1,852
    Location:
    BDU, BJC
    What is the problem that is being solved? I guess I don't understand what's leading you here other than a love for old/offbeat airplanes (which is perfectly OK).

    if the problem is cheap/easy construction, it seems that's been solved a number of times and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a flat or semi-cantilevered parasol wing arrangement.
     
    Topaz and Himat like this.
  9. Mar 12, 2019 #9

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    I guess the idea is that there is more than one way to accomplish the cheap/easy goal and this could be one of them.
     
  10. Mar 12, 2019 #10

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    2,978
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    Just an observation here, but if some of you guys paid yourself a dime every time you participated in a "cheap and easy airplane" thread you could be flying an "expensive and complex" one by now.

    Just saying...
     
    Tiger Tim, Himat and BJC like this.
  11. Mar 12, 2019 #11

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    I suspect that your math is a little off, but really it comes down to what you like, what tickles your imagination. I have absolutely zero interest supercars or luxury cars or massive SUVs, but a nicely restored old Beetle or Mini or 2CV gets me every time. The same holds true -- for me -- for most factory general aviation aircraft and many kit planes as compared to simple, low-powered rag-and-tube taildraggers and inexpensive plans-built planes. Different strokes....

     
    Dillpickle likes this.
  12. Mar 12, 2019 #12

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Aesquire

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,234
    Likes Received:
    883
    Location:
    Rochester, NY, USA
    The Airdrome version of the D.VIII already uses a stacked tube with dual sheer web spar.

    If a tapered wing is not desired, then the Morane-Saulnier may, with tail shapes modified to suit your Dutch/Fokker recreational plane "replica" might save a lot of work.

    http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/morane.html

    Some questions you have to ask yourself are....

    How important is a non tapered wing? Why? Better stall? Ease of build? ( how hard is multiple rib patterns vs. All same? )

    Are looks that important? ( sure, of course! ) then do you prefer a nearly forgotten fighter look, or an even more obscure light plane look? Or maybe a fantasy, steampunk, Zeppelin aircraft carrier fighter? Perhaps a Sopwith style tail?

    Wulfenbach Castle Defence Force?

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030623#.XIfrF98pB0s

    By all means read the next few pages.... It's typical thread drift here.

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030630#.XIfreN8pB0s plus next page, really!

    http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121025#.XIfqht8pB0s
     
  13. Mar 12, 2019 #13

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2015
    Messages:
    913
    Likes Received:
    580
    Location:
    Uncasville, CT
    The benefit to something like the v.40 (aside from my obvious interests in a platform for a 3V) is that it's a cool-looking design with some interesting historical provenance from one of the legends of early aviation history, that as a full-scale nuts-and-bolts replica could still easily fall within being a light-sport, possible ultralight, and use any of a number of low-power and affordable engines. Add to it that, with maybe some concession for modern and simplified construction methods not available at the time we could make it something as easy to build as any other parasol ultralight, is a bonus.

    Now the general concept of a cantilever parasol of similar construction without just building a 1:1 replica v40 is still interesting but doesn't have some of those features. For me it is more a case of preference. I see a certain elegance in it, in that you build a single wing tip to tip on a table, and then hang a plane from it, and so there's a conceptual simplicity to it that is interesting. The fact that it doesn't just look like every other strut-braced high-wing is a bonus; I like that it keeps the cabanes splayed far out from the forward view as well.
     
    Battler Britton likes this.
  14. Mar 12, 2019 #14

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    2,978
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    Yes, the math was tongue in cheek, but the point remains that there are endless threads concerning the "cheap/easy" airplane and that means a LOT of time burned up bashing keys instead of welding/gluing. Bashing keys is not the most effective path to an airplane, even an "easy" one, but it does burn resources at a high rate.

    There is a point where one has to stop searching and just pick something, don't you think?
     
    Tiger Tim likes this.
  15. Mar 12, 2019 #15

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    6,350
    Likes Received:
    2,204
    Location:
    World traveler
    I have picked something, an Evans Volksplane VP-2, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to talk about other homebuilt planes and especially design ideas. In my personal case, my work has meant an international move for my family each year since 2016, and another this summer, so I read and write and scheme and dream until the day I can build and fly.
     
  16. Mar 12, 2019 #16

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,026
    Likes Received:
    2,981
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Maybe not a dime, but a dollar...
     
  17. Mar 12, 2019 #17

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    5,664
    Likes Received:
    4,560
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    Doing airplanes and talking about airplanes can rightfully be considered two separate hobbies. Both of them are worthwhile and of great interest to me.

    Right at this particular moment my financial budget for building an E-AB is pretty low (does Aircraft Spruce accept Food Stamps?). So participating on HBA and keeping my brain active is a very high value to me. I get free education, hang around like-minded people, I get to meet smarter folks than me, and sometimes I get to have my own experience and knowledge be of value to others.

    If I was losing money (or missing out on income) by participating in this forum, then that would be another story. If I had an active E-AB project in the shop and spending time yapping here was taking time away from that, then of course that would be costing me something.

    As far as that little Fokker, there's comething there worth pursuing IMHO. It should be cantilever, the original one was, and as has been mentioned there are hundreds of other strut-braced and wire-braced little airplanes. If the Fokker had a wing fold mechanism similar to the Pou du Ciel, that would add a significant feature. A center section that would fit into a standard trailer, and the outer panels fold up and over onto the center section. After whatever engineering and fastener shear loads and fabrication are completed, it represents a very elegant solution on a daily storage basis.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    litespeed and cluttonfred like this.
  18. Mar 12, 2019 #18

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2015
    Messages:
    913
    Likes Received:
    580
    Location:
    Uncasville, CT
    I spend a lot of my time here in-between productive times; and whinging about wings and fussing over fuselages is a better way to spend my downtime (aka an appreciable portion of my day at the office until I can leave my dayjob) than watching re-runs of Hot Ones on YouTube. (and to be fair who says I can't do both?)

    Plus once one is into a project it doesn't mean the 'idea brain' doesn't just stop, satiated. I find that the deeper I get into a project, the harder the other what-ifs start coming up. Once the what-ifs are solved on what I'm working on, the idea bran is still amped up on coffee and churning in the background: "Yes I need to solve how to make a fixture for my center section and decide on the proper order of operations for when to drill the ribs and whatever other tasks are at hand; but oh wow I'd really like a Sperry Messenger replica and a matching Fokker to share a hanger space with it." Meanwhile there's a few other idea brains working in whole other fields, figuring out how I'm going to build a replica paintball StG-44 and Remmington 700 after I wrap up on my line of AK-47 replicas, for one example.

    Ideas come fast and easy at any rate. And that's good, cuz sometimes those tangental ideas lead back to a solution that you need right now. Or point out that its time to pivot.

    But that said, I'm not wanting for actual projects: nor future projects for the time being. If someone is really trying to figure out what to do, maybe some discussion is helpful in any case.
     
  19. Mar 12, 2019 #19

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    2,978
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    Fair enough, all. I overlooked this was in the "hangar" (aka Facebook) area. No technical solution required/desired.
     
  20. Mar 12, 2019 #20

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,026
    Likes Received:
    2,981
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I have mentioned multiple times a cantilevered parasol using Rutan composite wing and 4130 fuselage with no traction. You essentially build the spar and add the airfoil foam parts and glass it all. Simplistic explanation but the simplest wing for someone who does not want to build, along with Parts count and jigging. Time wise it’s a wash with any other building style except the one called buying. The Rutan spar is very much the same usage idea as the Fokker box spars. Carve the platform you like. Having built some RC EV/DVIIIs, it’s a devil of a little plane; seems to be the predominant opinion, RC and Replicas. It does not like to fly slow. It is no cute Cub of a plane;the Dr1 is much more a accessible handeling airplane.
     
    Battler Britton likes this.

Share This Page

arrow_white