C-85-12 Mod on a Champ

Discussion in 'Classics' started by Mark Z, Nov 3, 2019.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 3, 2019 #1

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    I’ve got a winter project and Bill Pancake’s STC to go from an A-65-8 and get 20 more horses and a push button starter to boot. I’ve pondered this for a while and stumbled on a barn find of a low time engine. However it’s got no logs but I’ve no reason to doubt the credibility of the seller. I’ve scoped it and all looks well.

    My plan is to replace the pushrod tubes with those by Real Gaskets, do away with the generator, install new ignition system, starter, and prop. Upon further inspection I’ll make determination about pulling cylinders but as of now I’m considering leaving it be. I’m in no hurry to remove my “leaky pushrod tubes” A-65 that runs flawlessly and continually makes great power.

    Worst case scenario, I build a stroker 85 out of it with zero time fresh logs. 8C9C486A-B045-4D91-9460-029C3AE9C620.jpeg
     
    mcrae0104 likes this.
  2. Nov 3, 2019 #2

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    6,022
    Location:
    USA.
    Bill Pancake is a friend of mine. You should see his homebuilt Champ. None better.
    Big, nice difference between a 65 HP Champ and a 85 HP Champ, you will like it.

    Only time you have enough power is when you run out of rudder, then build a bigger rudder :)
     
    Rockiedog2 likes this.
  3. Nov 3, 2019 #3

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    Bill built my airplane back in 1992; I’m third owner since rebuild. He is an amazing craftsman.
     
  4. Nov 3, 2019 #4

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    6,022
    Location:
    USA.
    What ever Bill builds, none better.
     
    Mark Z likes this.
  5. Nov 3, 2019 #5

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,916
    Likes Received:
    4,862
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    My Champ started off as a 65hp 7AC, but when the previous owner re-engines it with a 90hp engine (and later, a C-85), the FAA registration was changed to 7DC. I had never seen that done before. The other thing that surprised me was that all of the 85hp Champs I had seen had extra fin area added in the form of a dorsal, but mine didn’t have that. I learned later that the added dorsal fun was not mandated.
     
  6. Nov 3, 2019 #6

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    6,022
    Location:
    USA.
    I thought that the larger fin area ( dorsal) was for the 85 HP , didn't know that it was not mandated.
     
  7. Nov 3, 2019 #7

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,916
    Likes Received:
    4,862
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    I thought the dorsal was required too, but apparently not, as the feds signed off on that. A friend of mine who is a Champ Guru confirmed to me that Is that the dorsal was not mandated. I don’t recall if the lack of dorsal came with any changes in performance limitations.
     
  8. Nov 3, 2019 #8

    Steve C

    Steve C

    Steve C

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Lodi, CA
    I know of 2 85hp Chanps nearby with small fins. They are great airplanes.
     
  9. Nov 3, 2019 #9

    Tiger Tim

    Tiger Tim

    Tiger Tim

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    1,600
    Location:
    Thunder Bay
    I always thought the big fin on a Champ was for floats. I could see how a lot of 85hp Champs would have been sold with floats in mind but either never installed or just removed sometime in the last 70(!) years. IIRC the big fin is just a single curved tube that clamps to the fuselage spine and top of the fin, so the small fin ought to be present in all Champs.
     
  10. Nov 4, 2019 #10

    Jerry Lytle

    Jerry Lytle

    Jerry Lytle

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    110
    Location:
    Newport, Oregon
    It was a commonpractice to add the big fin when doing a recover. I don't think my big tailed Champ had an entry in th log for it. Similar to overhauling the C65 with C75 parts often was not noted as changing to 75 HP.Had a T-Craft and a Champ both 75 HP C65 engines.
     
  11. Nov 4, 2019 #11

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    The A65 is a great little engine. I’ve owned two since the early ‘80s, both in Champs; one big dorsal and this one with the original tail. The metal prop is expensive but a great performer. The sad thing is I’m going to need a new prop for the 85. I really look forward to a having starter.
    I still say that my Champ time has done more for polishing my flying skill than any other airplane I’ve ever flown.
     
    Victor Bravo likes this.
  12. Nov 4, 2019 #12

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,858
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    Next step... Taylorcraft :)
     
    Dana and Jerry Lytle like this.
  13. Nov 4, 2019 #13

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    Taylorcraft is a great airplane, I’ve flown em but they are too darn hard to mount.
     
    Pops likes this.
  14. Nov 4, 2019 #14

    Pops

    Pops

    Pops

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    6,022
    Location:
    USA.
    Especially when you get past 39 years old :)
     
  15. Nov 4, 2019 #15

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,916
    Likes Received:
    4,862
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Have any of you heard about the type on record being changed like mine was changed from 7AC to 7DC? That was a new one on me.
     
  16. Nov 5, 2019 #16

    samyguy

    samyguy

    samyguy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Lincoln Nebr
    Hard to mount ?? I'm 59 180#
    Just back into the cabin, wish I had an 85hp
    Of course you can't be over 5'10" or Leggy
     
    Jerry Lytle likes this.
  17. Nov 6, 2019 #17

    Steve C

    Steve C

    Steve C

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Lodi, CA
    I think my dads changed to 7BCM He had to put a tank in one wing and the new prop of course. Stockton prop did a horrible job on it. I don't recommend them.
     
  18. Nov 7, 2019 #18

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Mark Z

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Granbury, Texas USA 0TX0
    There is some rule that says you need x number of gallons per horsepower. I know that if I went from a 65 to 90, then I’m short 2 or 3 gallons with my 13 gallon tank and would have to add a header tank or wing tank. I’ve been out scrubbing this project and am finding an engine under the years of hangar grime. It does look to be in pretty good shape so far. A41F3F0B-88F5-4EEC-9194-2713AEE644AC.jpeg
     
  19. Nov 7, 2019 #19

    narfi

    narfi

    narfi

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Messages:
    751
    Likes Received:
    376
    Location:
    Alaska
    The FAA is made up of humans. Often humans unable to obtain gainful employee elsewhere. There are the FARs, then they have their internal policies and interpretations that have nothing to do with the FARs but what they 'feel' is rule. They can not agree with one another from one topic to the next.

    Long winded response to your question. The answer is yes,
    I have seen certified aircraft modified to x or y standards of a later or earlier model where the FAA decided to change its model, only to be forced to change back once another FAA guy decides that's not right later on.
     
    bmcj and Rockiedog2 like this.
  20. Nov 7, 2019 #20

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,639
    Likes Received:
    3,269
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    If a change is within the type certificate model, it becomes that model plane.
    Before LSA most people would convert to a more desirable model within the type. Comes along LSA and the higher performance planes are outside LSA for gross increases. That made unconverted planes worth more. Change back you say. You can’t because there is an FAR that says if you increase gross, you can’t go back.
    I know someone with a Chief that a float conversion done but no paperwork signed. My friend buys it sells the big engine and puts it back to original to keep it lsa.

    Side note. I got my first Champ Ride yesterday. What a total uncoordinated mess that was. I thought, what is this thing going to do, turn around and fly backwards?
     

Share This Page

arrow_white