are these weights accurate?

Discussion in 'Subaru' started by blane.c, Sep 6, 2016.

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  1. Sep 6, 2016 #1

    blane.c

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Originally Posted by http://www.prekas.nl/subaru.htm
    The Subaru range of engines include:

    EA-71: 1,6 liter, about 80 hp, about 78 kg(172lbs) dry weight
    EA-81: 1,8 liter, 100 to 110 hp, about 85 kg(187lbs) dry weight
    EJ-22: 2,2 liter, 130 to 160 hp, about 120 kg(265lbs) dry weight
    EJ-25: 2,5 liter, 165 to 200 hp, about 135 kg(298lbs) dry weight
    EJ-33: 3,3 liter, 225 to 275 hp, about 160 kg(353lbs) dry weight
     
  2. Sep 7, 2016 #2

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

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    No reason to doubt it but I do not believe the EA81 100 hp nonsense for a moment.

    Dynos and driving one say otherwise and even Subaru's own twin port sporty EA81 had only 115hp.

    I would say more likely 80HP for the EA81, probably the same as the EA71, but increased torque in the lower rpm range.
     
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  3. Sep 7, 2016 #3

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Thanks
     
  4. Sep 7, 2016 #4

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    You don't know what's included in these weights. My EJ22 long block, no intake, exhaust, flywheel or accessories weighed 188 lbs. I think with attention to detail, you could have a running example at just under 250 pounds.

    Why would an EJ25 be 33 pounds heavier than an EJ22? Could be a DOHC version which weighs about 18 pounds more.

    My EG33 long block weighed 265 pounds, doubt if the missing parts to make it run would weigh another 88 pounds.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  5. Sep 8, 2016 #5

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Thank you
     
  6. Sep 8, 2016 #6

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    These weights may be as removed from the car with exhaust manifolds, flywheels, alternators, starters, P/S pumps etc. The EG33 intake manifold weighs around 30 pounds alone. Few people leave these in place when used in aircraft. The one I made to replace it weighed 12 pounds and Russell Sherwood made a composite one which weighed around 4.5 I think. You can lighten up many of the brackets and lines on these engines too, leave the plastic timing covers off etc.

    A customer in Russia sent me an email today that he had his engine running in his Bearhawk for the first time yesterday. I hope he'll send me some updated photos.
     
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  7. Sep 15, 2016 #7

    blane.c

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Got these off another website.


    Admittedly, the conversion described above was an extreme example. But look at the following table, which shows representative comparisons of the installation weights of several Lycoming engines against the lightweight (for a Liquid-Cooled-V8), normally-aspirated, 505-HP EPI Gen-1 Aircraft Engine.

    NOTE: A powerplant based on the GM Gen-4 engines ( LS-2 / LS-7 ) on an apples-to-apples comparison, weighs about 25 pounds less.

    The weights listed in the table are generally from measured components being used on actual aircraft. The Lycoming weights are direct from Lycoming documentation, verified from hands-on experience. AND, this is not an exhaustive list. It shows only the major items.

    PLEASE NOTE: The Gen-1 V8 in the chart below DOES NOT include any turbocharging considerations. To estimate a turbocharged V8, add 60-90 pounds to account for the weight of (a) the turbocharger and wastegate, (b) turbo support structure, (c) intercooler, (d) inlet plumbing and miscellaneous other stuff.


    [TABLE]

    [TD="width: 30%"]
    Item
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 500 HP EPI
    Gen-1-V8

    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 200 HP Lyc
    IO-360-C1C6

    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 260 HP Lyc
    IO-540-D4A5

    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 300 HP Lyc
    IO-540-K1E5

    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 425 HP Lyc
    TIGO-541-E1A

    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Engine (complete)
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 424.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 293.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 402.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 447.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 702.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Reduction Gearbox
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 86.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Air Cleaner
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 4.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Inlet Air Duct
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.1
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Alternate Air Mechanism
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.5
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Exhaust Headers
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 16.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 7.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 14.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Exh pipes to Muffler
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Muffler
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 14.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 5.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 6.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 6.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] n/a
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Exh pipes from Muffler
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Oil Filter + 1 qt oil
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] included
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Oil Heat Exchanger + 1 qt oil
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 10.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 10.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 10.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 11.7
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Oil Lines
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 5.6
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 1.7
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 4.9
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Engine Oil
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 30.7
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 11.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 15.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 15.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 19.2
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Coolant Heat Exchanger
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 32.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Expansion Tank
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.1
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Overflow Tank
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 1.9
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Coolant Lines
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 6.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Coolant (14 qt)
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 29.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"]
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Fuel Filter
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.2
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Prop Governor
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.4
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.4
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.4
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.4
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 3.4
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Vacuum Pump
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.5
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 2.5
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Baffles / Ductwork
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.3
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 4.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 5.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 5.2
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 6.2
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Propeller
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 125.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 55.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 79.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 79.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 125.0
    [/TD]

    [TD="width: 30%"] Spinner
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.1
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 7.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 8.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.0
    [/TD]
    [TD="width: 14%"] 9.1
    [/TD]
    [/TABLE]

    Cowling
    35.0
    22.0
    27.0
    27.0
    33.0
    Engine Mount
    47.0
    13.5
    19.2
    19.2
    31.0


    TOTAL
    914.5
    451.5
    604.9
    649.9
    975.7


    DIFFERENCE
    *
    463.0
    309.6
    264.6
    -61.3


    These numbers can be made to vary a bit by altering the specific configuration. Composite propellers can be substituted for metal ones. Cowling, ductwork, and engine mount numbers can vary. Things can be omitted. But the table is a good representation of reality, taken from actual flying aircraft.

    Note that the only engine in the table which makes sense to replace with a V8 is the Lycoming TIGO-541 (the engines on a Piper Navajo). There are a few others which make sense too, including Pratt & Whitney radials (R-985 and R-1340) and most installations using the GTSIO-520 / 550. But we have had people come to us wanting to replace all the other engines listed in the table with some form of liquid-cooled V8.

    The engine mount numbers in the table above are quite different. Why is that? Because Lycoming engines are cantilevered off the back face, which allows the mount to be quite short and stiff, therefore light. Pictured below is a 19-pound mount for a 300 HP Lycoming IO-540 engine, and it includes the nosegear support structure as well.
     
  8. Sep 15, 2016 #8

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    The TIGO-541 engines are only used on pressurized Navajos and the Beech Duke if memory serves me correctly..

    Most Navajos have much simpler and lighter direct drive versions of the IO-540 which is a completely different engine.

    I had the pleasure of getting a bunch of right seat time in P-Navajos back in the mid 70s. Nice airplane and engines to fly but I wouldn't want to be paying the maintenance and overhaul costs on them.

    No doubt an LS-3 de-rated to 4300 rpm and 350hp or an LS7 at 3800 rpm, mated to a Ballistic gearbox would be weight competitive with a TIO-540 Lycoming at a tiny fraction of the cost, even if you had to overhaul or replace it every 500 hours.

    Some of the ancillary weights in the table seem massive- 3 pounds for an expansion tank, 2 for an overflow? Are these made of steel? 32 pounds for a radiator? Brass? 5 pounds for an air filter? A big K&N weighs a pound. Why would you need 14 quarts of coolant or 4 gallons of oil in a V8? 2.2 pound fuel filter? The ones we use weigh ounces.

    Most geared auto engines will weigh more than a Lycoming or Conti of the same hp unless the auto engine is turbocharged. Direct drive ones have even worse power to weight ratios unless turboed again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2016
  9. Sep 15, 2016 #9

    BoKu

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