A different view of flight safety.

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TFF

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I think everyone is taught to be ready. Lots become lax because everything is reliable. That is the gotcha. After twenty years of no lost engine, it is easy to forget that the dice are loaded at each takeoff, not averaged out over the years. I know a few who go practice GPS approaches two or three times a week; never emergency takeoffs. Never. There are pilots that are going to get it right every time just because they are wired that way. There are others who constantly have to be checked because they will start passing it off.
 

Rockiedog2

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I was taught that every takeoff is a, WHAT IF, takeoff. Already have a plan of action is it gets quiet. And I have had a engine failure on takeoff.
Taking off of KCRW on runway 23, when going off the end of the runway you are instantly about 400' above the city and only place to go is in the river or a heavily traveled interstate. I'll take the river.
Some people has flown past the airport, over the river and several hundred feet below runway elevation and radar and tower could never see them.
I went in there one time Pops. At night; unsked landing at an airport we never used for some reason. Don't remember. I think I remember approaching over that ravine, it was weird the normal references weren't there. And high wind. Rough.
There was a cliff at the departure end of the runway on Guam. Like you say, instant 400 feet. The navigators liked that since they ejected down. But there were bad fish down there so they worried over that a lot. LOL.

Sorry OP, got off OT again. Sorry...
 

bmcj

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Sorry all, when I said “based on stall and 30 degree bank, I didn’t state that very well. I know he included a safety factor in there too. My point was that his min allows you to get away with a lot more, but you can still stall the plane if you try hard enough, and I’ve read some accident reports that seem to indicate that there are some pilots that indeed try very hard.
 

BBerson

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I think it's best to just get the nose down below the horizon instead of constant looking at the airspeed. If the nose is down it should be above stall. Same for steep banks, I think. If the nose is down you have a reserve.
 

12notes

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Sorry all, when I said “based on stall and 30 degree bank, I didn’t state that very well. I know he included a safety factor in there too. My point was that his min allows you to get away with a lot more, but you can still stall the plane if you try hard enough, and I’ve read some accident reports that seem to indicate that there are some pilots that indeed try very hard.
If you try hard enough, you can screw up anything. He's trying to reduce accidents for the pilots who aren't trying to screw up. You have to set a reasonable upper limit, or you'll fly the entire pattern at the other maneuvering speed, making landing a bit difficult.

Intelligence has limits, stupid goes all the way down. Trying to fix stupid is a waste of time.
 
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bmcj

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If you try hard enough...
I’m not dissing his technique, it could help prevent a lot of the GA stall-spin accidents. I’m just saying that it’s not the Holy Grail to end all stalls. It’s definitely a step in the right direction.
 

radfordc

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Actually, he sets minimum maneuvering speed by adding the load of a 30 degree bank on top of 1.3 Vso, not stall in a 30 degree bank. He ends up with 1.404 Vso, which is approximately stall speed in a 60 degree bank. This will allow for some pretty stupid maneuvering without killing the pilot.
Hey...you were paying attention in class!
 

radfordc

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I’m not dissing his technique, it could help prevent a lot of the GA stall-spin accidents. I’m just saying that it’s not the Holy Grail to end all stalls. It’s definitely a step in the right direction.
I don't think his goal was to prevent all all stalls...just the ones at low altitude that kill too many pilots.

How many BFR instructors pull the power a dozen times? Probably he's the only one, but maybe should be a lot more.
 

Pops

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I went in there one time Pops. At night; unsked landing at an airport we never used for some reason. Don't remember. I think I remember approaching over that ravine, it was weird the normal references weren't there. And high wind. Rough.
There was a cliff at the departure end of the runway on Guam. Like you say, instant 400 feet. The navigators liked that since they ejected down. But there were bad fish down there so they worried over that a lot. LOL.

Sorry OP, got off OT again. Sorry...

It's called U.S.S. Charley West for a reason. Like landing on an aircraft carrier sticking about 400/500' above the water. Yes deep hollows right at the beginning and end of all runways. Have to be very careful of the winds rolling down in the hollows on approach or you will hit the end of the aircraft carrier. That's the airport that I had an engine failure on takeoff.
If you like living, better play "What IF" and have a plan.
On my twin training, instructor had me doing touch and go's on runway 23 at night with a left crosswind gusting to 45 knots from 150 degrees between 2- C-130's also practicing in the wind. When tieing the airplane down on the ramp, had to hold the airplane with engines and brakes until it was chalked and tied down. Then I could kill the engines. My instructor was the man that gave me my first airplane ride when I was 13 years old, Flew B-52 his whole time in the AF starting in 1954 until retired. All of my instructors were military instructors.
 

Rockiedog2

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I practice the “impossible turn” routinely. The first time I did it at actual altitude to a landing in my then-new plane, as per my habit from my A152, I exited the U turn at best glide speed. That was a mistake, because even with full flaps and a full rudder slip, I used the entire runway. I now fly the turn at less than best glide speed. (Best glide is around 85 knots, minimum sink is around 75 knots, and full flaps stall is around 42 knots.)

The point is that there are many different scenarios, and a single, simplified (“immediately push over ...”), course of action is not always the best action.


BJC
Are you talking in your Sportsman(is that what it's called?)?
and the "impossible turn"...that's the 180+ back to the runway?
 

Turd Ferguson

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Unfortunately, the startle factor that comes with a sudden loss of power and high pitch angle can't be simulated or duplicated during training. In most cases, you know it's coming and you can prepare for it. When somebody is truly startled they do some weird stuff. I'm convinced the PF on Colgan 3407, Marvin Renslow was beyond startled when they inadvertently stalled the Q400 at BUF. The potential for startle is always higher when one doesn't spend much time on the edge of the envelope, which goes back to how many times does the average pilot rehearse stalls and recovery in a plane over the course of 2 calendar yrs (between flight reviews)? The likely answer is zero.
 

BJC

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Unfortunately, the startle factor that comes with a sudden loss of power and high pitch angle can't be simulated or duplicated during training. In most cases, you know it's coming and you can prepare for it. When somebody is truly startled they do some weird stuff. I'm convinced the PF on Colgan 3407, Marvin Renslow was beyond startled when they inadvertently stalled the Q400 at BUF. The potential for startle is always higher when one doesn't spend much time on the edge of the envelope, which goes back to how many times does the average pilot rehearse stalls and recovery in a plane over the course of 2 calendar yrs (between flight reviews)? The likely answer is zero.
When practicing, a good technique is to pull the power, and count two seconds before taking action. That is plenty of time, especially if the pilot was trained like Pops said: think about options before takeoff, and expect a loss of power. It’s good when the surprise is that the engine ran at full power as desired.


BJC
 
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Turd Ferguson

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A two second human factors delay is what a thoroughly trained pilot needs to process what's happening. I'm talking about the other 3/4 of pilot population that doesn't invest a lot of time in training, flies infrequently and will be panic stricken when they need to be processing. I've had pilots completely freeze on the controls (I had one guy that tried to open the door on a 182, (I'm like "where ya goin dude?") I guess he thought jumping was a better option. Those are the guys skewing the stats that make everyone look bad.
 

BJC

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A two second human factors delay is what a thoroughly trained pilot needs to process what's happening. I'm talking about the other 3/4 of pilot population that doesn't invest a lot of time in training, flies infrequently and will be panic stricken when they need to be processing. I've had pilots completely freeze on the controls (I had one guy that tried to open the door on a 182, (I'm like "where ya goin dude?") I guess he thought jumping was a better option. Those are the guys skewing the stats that make everyone look bad.
As another poster once commented here, some people should find a different hobby.


BJC
 

Pops

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A two second human factors delay is what a thoroughly trained pilot needs to process what's happening. I'm talking about the other 3/4 of pilot population that doesn't invest a lot of time in training, flies infrequently and will be panic stricken when they need to be processing. I've had pilots completely freeze on the controls (I had one guy that tried to open the door on a 182, (I'm like "where ya goin dude?") I guess he thought jumping was a better option. Those are the guys skewing the stats that make everyone look bad.
Had a friend with a flight school and a lot of international students. But, he had a local student that he was having trouble with and ask me to work with him. He could take-off and fly and do anything that you ask very well for his flight time. About forgot, My friend told me to watch him very closely in the pattern and landing. When he entered downwind he became white knuckled and grabbed the wheel with both hands and hung on. I told him to put his right hand back on the throttle, no response, pried his fingers off the wheel and put his hand on the throttle and he never knew and would grab the wheel again. When going over the end of the runway with the numbers sliding under the nose he pulled the wheel back as hard and fast as he could to the stop when he saw the ground coming up at him. I took both hands and slammed the wheel forward so hard that he went forward and hit the wheel with his chest. I landed the Cherokee and taxied to the ramp and we talked. He didn't even remembered landing.
I knew him, (Another American Indian) and ask him if he had opened any more Dry Cleaner stores, and he said he had been working 16+ hrs a day for several months opening several stores and was really tired. I told him to stop taking flying lessons and get his stores open and rest for at least a 2 or 3 months and then come back and start taking lessons again. He did and came back and got his private licenses and become a good pilot.
Don't ask me about the mad Russian. He wanted to fight after ever flight. Its a crazy world out there.
 
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bmcj

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I too had a student that had frustrated another instructor and was handed off to me. He flew fine, but blew every landing approach. I finally figured out that it wasn’t a height judgement problem... he he would line up and then come it too steep because he was nervous and in a hurry to get it on the ground. Once I pointed that out to him, it was the awareness of that problem that allowed him to relax and let the plane do its thing.
 

Turd Ferguson

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I think some pilot just need more training than others and apparently it's not a pleasant experience for the ones that need it as they avoid it like the plague.
I was definitely not a good student and I'm not a good pilot. I'm happy with average. Can't imagine having someone telling me I need to find a different hobby.
 
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