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Bigshu

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They are very commonly used for ethanol. I already provided a link.

Where do people get the idea that because they haven't seen something it doesn't exist?
I don't think I said blender pumps don't exist, I said I don't know where you find them. I'm unaware of them in the KC metro area, but, I don't ever buy mid-grade, so maybe it's under my radar. When I started on the pipeline 30+ years ago, we did blend tanks full of mid-grade ( half premium, half regular, circulate, sample, test and release), but improvements in rack equipment allowed us to go to sequential blending at the loading rack decades ago. There are proportional blending setups too, but we won't get that upgrade before I retire...So, we have tanks of regular, tanks of premium, tanks of ethanol, and they can be loaded out in a variety of blend recipes as provided by the inventory owner (supplier), and chosen by the consignee (gas station). Any mixing of products in the pipe is either cut to a mix tank, or cut to protect the higher grade. So, when we have premium followed by regular in the line, we cut out of the premium tank at the first break in gravity. On regular followed by premium, we cut out of the regular tank after the gravity has stabilized at the premium gravity. A little downgrade of premium barrels, but a little octane boost to the regular stock...I'm unaware of any pipeline where large amounts of "mix" is tanked separately and marketed as a legal fuel stock. If you're generating that much mix, you must have a very large piping segment, or very poor operators.
 

Derswede

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Biggest reason for blending was to reduce the tank count in the ground, reducing insurance and installation costs. If you think airplane insurance is expensive, check tank leak insurance. We designed tank monitoring systems, etc, but it turned out to be much cheaper to just have less tanks in the ground. The first blender units were mechanical, a valve with orifices to give the proper ratio of fuel. Not extremely accurate. The current generation is a proportional flow valve with a stepper motor control and a feedback look thru the meters. Hard to fake, hard to steal from such a dispenser. (pumps have motors and a pump, dispensers use STP's turbine pumps in the tank that push fuel to multiple dispensers.) Quite accurate until the seals start to disintegrate. Most have used a blender pump or dispenser, there are few indications to see. We got Weights and Measures approvals from over 15 countries while I was running our international department. Good technology.
 

Bigshu

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Biggest reason for blending was to reduce the tank count in the ground, reducing insurance and installation costs. If you think airplane insurance is expensive, check tank leak insurance. We designed tank monitoring systems, etc, but it turned out to be much cheaper to just have less tanks in the ground. The first blender units were mechanical, a valve with orifices to give the proper ratio of fuel. Not extremely accurate. The current generation is a proportional flow valve with a stepper motor control and a feedback look thru the meters. Hard to fake, hard to steal from such a dispenser. (pumps have motors and a pump, dispensers use STP's turbine pumps in the tank that push fuel to multiple dispensers.) Quite accurate until the seals start to disintegrate. Most have used a blender pump or dispenser, there are few indications to see. We got Weights and Measures approvals from over 15 countries while I was running our international department. Good technology.
That's really interesting. We still have a ton of different recipes for 89 octane gasoline, that get pulled, so maybe there's enough mom and pop stations that still have in ground mid grade tanks to make having the recipes worth while. On a barely related note, I don't know which pipelines might still have regular gasoline that can be sold "neat" and make the 87 octane spec. All the fuel we see from refineries is well below 87, so you have to have either ethanol or premium in the recipe to make on octane.
 

Bigshu

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I don't think I said blender pumps don't exist, I said I don't know where you find them. I'm unaware of them in the KC metro area, but, I don't ever buy mid-grade, so maybe it's under my radar. When I started on the pipeline 30+ years ago, we did blend tanks full of mid-grade ( half premium, half regular, circulate, sample, test and release), but improvements in rack equipment allowed us to go to sequential blending at the loading rack decades ago. There are proportional blending setups too, but we won't get that upgrade before I retire...So, we have tanks of regular, tanks of premium, tanks of ethanol, and they can be loaded out in a variety of blend recipes as provided by the inventory owner (supplier), and chosen by the consignee (gas station). Any mixing of products in the pipe is either cut to a mix tank, or cut to protect the higher grade. So, when we have premium followed by regular in the line, we cut out of the premium tank at the first break in gravity. On regular followed by premium, we cut out of the regular tank after the gravity has stabilized at the premium gravity. A little downgrade of premium barrels, but a little octane boost to the regular stock...I'm unaware of any pipeline where large amounts of "mix" is tanked separately and marketed as a legal fuel stock. If you're generating that much mix, you must have a very large piping segment, or very poor operators.
I'd forgotten about this, but we also used to have dye "flags" injected into the interface between products at their origins. Once you saw the flag, you made the switch. A PITA, but handy when gravities were very similar. Gasoline formulations have changed a lot over the years. We rarely see the straw colored gasoline we used to, it's almost all very close to clear. You'd need to run a Saybolt or Fischer colorimeter test to tell the difference between grades, or refineries.
 

12notes

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They are very commonly used for ethanol. I already provided a link.

Where do people get the idea that because they haven't seen something it doesn't exist?
While they do exist, they are not very common, and only 2 outside of the northern midwest. There's 454 gas stations with blending pumps out of approximately 115,000 gas stations in the US, or 0.39%.

 

Doggzilla

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But back on topic, ethanol blenders are already available off the shelf and ethanol can be blended to replace 100LL quite easily.
 

12notes

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Doggzilla

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Your map is of all locations that have E85 pumps. My map is the location of the blender pumps which you claimed were very common. E85 is common, blender pumps are not.
Your map clearly states it’s an amateur site that is manually updated by volunteers.

The idea that somehow blenders are not common or can’t be used is absolutely ridiculous.

Stop bickering pointlessly for no reason
 

GTX_Engines

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Columbia, SC
Simple question: Does lead decrease volatility to the point where leaded fuel will not vapor lock as easily as does recreational pure gasoline?

I say no, and have a BS in chemistry. My wife has a PhD in chemistry and she agrees with me. We agree that changing a metallic content in a volatile liquid does not change volatility measurably. Changing a liquid content, such as adding ethanol to gasoline, does.

An adversary on another forum claims the FAA determined that 100LL reduces vapor lock. I say bull feathers, this other guy is pulling rabbits out of his butt. I have searched all over the web for anything at all that backs up what this other guy claims, to no avail.
 

12notes

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Your map clearly states it’s an amateur site that is manually updated by volunteers.

The idea that somehow blenders are not common or can’t be used is absolutely ridiculous.

Stop bickering pointlessly for no reason
You've offered zero information or sources to support your claim, so my map that is done by volunteers is infinitely more reliable than your completely unsupported claim. I just linked to a source that disputes your claim, if you want to do the research to find a better number, go right ahead, but so far your claim that they are "very common" is not supported by any evidence. So far you've offered a map of the wrong thing, and now an unrelated defense of a statement never made by me that they "can't be used". It doesn't seem that I'm the one bickering.
 

Bigshu

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Simple question: Does lead decrease volatility to the point where leaded fuel will not vapor lock as easily as does recreational pure gasoline?

I say no, and have a BS in chemistry. My wife has a PhD in chemistry and she agrees with me. We agree that changing a metallic content in a volatile liquid does not change volatility measurably. Changing a liquid content, such as adding ethanol to gasoline, does.

An adversary on another forum claims the FAA determined that 100LL reduces vapor lock. I say bull feathers, this other guy is pulling rabbits out of his butt. I have searched all over the web for anything at all that backs up what this other guy claims, to no avail.
I'm with you, there's no link I know of between lead and volatility. There are several ways to make gasoline a reformulated blend to meet RVP constraints. Oxygenates like ethanol are popular, but it seems to me that MTBE was popular until the extreme health risks and impact on the water table came to light. In KC, we were the last large metropolitan area to have to implement low RVP gasoline during the summer compliance period. Now, Missouri and Kansas are backing off that (so I've heard) so it looks like we'll be back to one RVP in the summer (volatility schedules still apply, for drivability concerns, vapor lock in summer, poor combustion in winter).
 

Bigshu

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This paper dated 2018 states that 100LL contains 0.13% Tetra ethyl lead. I think the facts stated are from 2013.

MSDS for Phillips 100LL
That's how Conoco/Phillips quotes theirs, but the API spec allows for a little bit higher lead content and still qualify as "low lead". One concern nobody has mentioned is Sulphur content. The transition down to low sulpher fuels was difficult, and even today, commercial jet fuel can have substantial sulpher content, well above the 15ppm associated with #1 heating oil (kerosene). This has environmental implications that will be hard to mitigate, and might require lubricity additive like the railroads have to use on the big diesels (that burn #2 diesel).
 

Bigshu

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I just had another stuck valve and I'm tired of 100LL...
I hear you. If you have the right airframe/engine combo, you can pay hundreds of dollars for the ability to use mogas, and get the lead out. Or track down some UL93.
 

Daleandee

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I just had another stuck valve and I'm tired of 100LL...
I've not had a stuck valve in the Corvair engine but I work to severely limit my use of 100LL. Don't know whether you have the option but I mix my fuel. Yes it is sometimes a bit of a pain and I can't always get it done when flying cross-country. My Engine will run on straight 93 octane (AKI) but finding E-Free 93 octane these days in my part of the country is getting quite difficult. One airport in the state sells Mogas.

I Use E-Free 90 octane and add just enough 100LL to bring it to the required 93 octane that my engine needs. Along with some snake oil in the form of Marvel Mystery oil & some Decalin things have gone well thus far. I do use an engine cleaner with PEA every once in while. Most times on preflight I pull the prop through to feel cylinder compressions and can sometimes get an early indication if something isn't right.

If you believe everything you read on the internet or by :bow:Mike Busch it's probably because your CHTs aren't hot enough: :rolleyes:

Opinion: Savvy maintenance
 

Bigshu

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I've not had a stuck valve in the Corvair engine but I work to severely limit my use of 100LL. Don't know whether you have the option but I mix my fuel. Yes it is sometimes a bit of a pain and I can't always get it done when flying cross-country. My Engine will run on straight 93 octane (AKI) but finding E-Free 93 octane these days in my part of the country is getting quite difficult. One airport in the state sells Mogas.

I Use E-Free 90 octane and add just enough 100LL to bring it to the required 93 octane that my engine needs. Along with some snake oil in the form of Marvel Mystery oil & some Decalin things have gone well thus far. I do use an engine cleaner with PEA every once in while. Most times on preflight I pull the prop through to feel cylinder compressions and can sometimes get an early indication if something isn't right.

If you believe everything you read on the internet or by :bow:Mike Busch it's probably because your CHTs aren't hot enough: :rolleyes:

Opinion: Savvy maintenance
Finding E free 93 anywhere is problematic. In the KC metro area, you can get E free 91 octane in several spots. Corvairs were designed for 87 octane weren't they? Clark's corvair says they'll do fine on ethanol blends too. Not sure about the rest of the fuel system (no fiberglass tanks!)...
 
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