Where building time comes from

[lakeracer69]

Along the same vein. My motto for building is "Do SOMETHING on your project everyday" It doesn't matter how much or how little time you spend on it. Just do SOMETHING. If you can put 1 hour in a weekday and more on the weekends the time really adds up. This is how I try to look at it. Clean up, ordering parts, research, tool set up, it all counts.

If one puts in one hour a weekday and 8 hours a weekend that is 676 hours a year. Work 8 hours both weekend days, and 1 hour per weekday, and that bumps up to 1092 hours. Somewhere in between strikes a balance between obsession and sanity. No one but you says you can't do tasks 15, 20, 30 minutes at a time. In the end, all the lil' Bitts of time will add up to something special. See what I did there. Hehehe.

 

[Little Scrapper]

Along the same vein. My motto for building is "Do SOMETHING on your project everyday" It doesn't matter how much or how little time you spend on it. Just do SOMETHING. If you can put 1 hour in a weekday and more on the weekends the time really adds up. This is how I try to look at it. Clean up, ordering parts, research, tool set up, it all counts.

If one puts in one hour a weekday and 8 hours a weekend that is 676 hours a year. Work 8 hours both weekend days, and 1 hour per day, and that bumps up to 1092 hours. Somewhere in between strikes a balance between obsession and sanity. No one but you says you can't do tasks 15, 20, 30 minutes at a time. In the end, all the lil' Bitts of time will add up to something special. See what I did there. Hehehe.

Absolutely excellent advice I think as well.

 

[akwrencher]

Haven't watched the vid yet, but I agree with Scrapper. Oops too, but I think that is less common. Takes a certain type of person to Excell in that way. I think a lot of people would do better with structure. I myself resisted structure for years. Just turned 42, it's only been a year since I started flossing every day. Takes me a while.....
My shop has been a mess for years. Lots of reasons, but mostly just not have a plan. This fall I started just going out there in the evening after work. Not every night, but I try to go out if I'm not to fried. Sometimes I only get 15 minutes of probuctivity, sometimes closer to 2 hours. I try for an hour, try not to burn out. It's a start. I'm not a naturally organized person, I have had to make myself learn to make notes and reminders, and schedule time for things. It's tough, but I get it, it's worth it. Some folks can strike a balance without the structure, but most of us need it weather we know it or not.
Good discussion, thanks LS.

 

[Little Scrapper]

People do what they want to do.


BJC

People do what they are programmed to do, usually based on past experience and emotion. So yeah, I would agree.

This thread is meant for those who want a bit more out of the experience. I expect it won’t be a lot of people on this thread.

I don’t know what the data is on completions. To start a airplane from scratch and follow it through to completion including flying and doing it in a timely fashion is probably extremely low. And there’s two groups of those people, retired or kids out of the house and the middle aged people who are still managing all that. Huge difference.

I’m focusing on my segment of people with active careers, married and kids and wand to build & fly. Most people in my group I would expect to have similar struggles with time assuming you don’t want to damage your family or career.

Nothing about this is easy. Again, I expect low numbers of people following this thread. I also expect comments bashing being responsible or trying to schedule this stuff in. Very few people on earth are really focused on improving themselves and that’s exactly what this about, you can’t have all of this with somehow improving yourself.Low numbers of completions would indicate a shortage of people who plan for it. So not planing, not designing a outcome would be considered normal.

 

[Little Scrapper]

Haven't watched the vid yet, but I agree with Scrapper. Oops too, but I think that is less common. Takes a certain type of person to Excell in that way. I think a lot of people would do better with structure. I myself resisted structure for years. Just turned 42, it's only been a year since I started flossing every day. Takes me a while.....
My shop has been a mess for years. Lots of reasons, but mostly just not have a plan. This fall I started just going out there in the evening after work. Not every night, but I try to go out if I'm not to fried. Sometimes I only get 15 minutes of probuctivity, sometimes closer to 2 hours. I try for an hour, try not to burn out. It's a start. I'm not a naturally organized person, I have had to make myself learn to make notes and reminders, and schedule time for things. It's tough, but I get it, it's worth it. Some folks can strike a balance without the structure, but most of us need it weather we know it or not.
Good discussion, thanks LS.

Having a mess and no real plan is hard on the mind. We tend to push projects off when that happens because they are anxiety provoking.

 

[Vigilant1]

Having a mess and no real plan is hard on the mind. We tend to push projects off when that happens because they are anxiety provoking.

I'm in this rut right now. Almost every horizontal surface has clutter, partially completed projects, supplies for projects I need to do, etc. Overwhelming, and not a source of pride. Just starting and having a plan will be the key I suppose.
I'm hoping for a fire.

 

[Tiger Tim]

Almost every horizontal surface has clutter, partially completed projects, supplies for projects I need to do, etc. Overwhelming, and not a source of pride.

I’m really bad for ending up there. In my experience, though, cleaning always takes less time and effort than I fear and even having a partly cleaned shop really supercharges my motivation to get back on task.

 

[Little Scrapper]

I'm in this rut right now. Almost every horizontal surface has clutter, partially completed projects, supplies for projects I need to do, etc. Overwhelming, and not a source of pride. Just starting and having a plan will be the key I suppose.
It is not a source of pride.
I'm hoping for a fire.

Routine and structure solves this.

 

[Vigilant1]

Routine and structure solves this.

It does. There are well-organized, happy, productive folks I know who don't have a set routine, don't overtly budget their time, etc. I suspect they do have a very well developed internal sense of priorities, maybe they aren't even conscious of all the planning being done in their head without paper.
In general, we are creatures of habit. It makes sense to harness that for the good.
When I used to travel a lot, in every hotel room I'd pretty much arrange my stuff in the same way. Seems rote and robotic, but saved mental energy, time searching for things, and inadvertently leaving things behind. When you are already exhausted and prone to mistakes, having things "on autopilot" is a help.

 

[Little Scrapper]

I’m really bad for ending up there. In my experience, though, cleaning always takes less time and effort than I fear and even having a partly cleaned shop really supercharges my motivation to get back on task.

Absolutely! The key habit is to clean immediately after working so next time you work you don’t need to fight the emotional battle of starting.

This is why the saying of “just do it” is not easy. “Just do it” means cleaning first, then organizing, then planning.......then actual work happens..

Habits and routines eliminate all that crap.

My wife is a very competitive triathlete. You can’t just say to someone “hey just do it” because they would drown 1 mile off shore. It requires planning, habit changes, routines, training etc.

My wife is never motivated to run really. She runs 30-50 miles a week. She’s programmed to do it. She keeps her running shoes by the door which is next to her bottle which is cleaned after every run. She sets herself up for success. That’s my point.

If you want to eat more fruit would you hide the fruit or would you put it on the table in a bowl so it’s always available? Same thing. If you routinely keep the habit of having water and fruit available where it’s super easy what happens? You don’t need motivation. Motivation is a myth. It comes and goes like the wind. Habits and routines are what keeps your emotions in check so when the opportunity presents itself you don’t need to have anxious thoughts of “how do it proceed”. Nothing kills motivation more than having to think.

 

[Little Scrapper]

I’m in about 30-40 homes a week. I’m not exaggerating when I say most people are pigs. 7 out of 10 people have crap everywhere all over the place. Out of those 7 I’d say 5 always lie to me at the front door. They say “sorry about the mess we are in the middle of cleaning”. This actually happens daily every day all week all year for my entire career. People are messy and crap is everywhere and then they lie and tell me I somehow caught them in the middle of cleaning. 50% of the planet is always in the middle of cleaning?

The truth is people lack proper routines and habits. We all have routines and habits, even the messy people. They just have a habit of leaving things lay around. That kills motivation. Creates emotions you don’t want.

Why? Probably emotion I guess. Children are driven by emotion. They let emotions drive behavior. Adults let facts and reason drive behavior, this is a hallmark of growing up. We don’t listen to our emotions we just let those thoughts come and go. So the messy shop is often times a result of emotion I suspect? We’d rather not deal with it because it’s taxing on the brain. I’ve been there, I’ve made these same mistakes.

In my business I clean my truck every night and make it spotless. Unconditional. This is not something extra I do, cleaning my truck is just as important as billing a customer or filing taxes. It’s part of my business model. Cleaning my truck is important so I have a habit and routine of doing that every night. I don’t need to right it down, it’s a deeply embedded part of my neurological being I suppose. If I fail to clean, my business basically fails because like I said it’s critical for success.

A hobby we sort of let it all go. That’s fine if your hobby is drawing a picture but not so fine if it’s a complex project requiring thousands of hours.

 

[BJC]

This thread is meant for those who want a bit more out of the experience. I expect it won’t be a lot of people on this thread.

To start a airplane from scratch and follow it through to completion including flying and doing it in a timely fashion is probably extremely low.

Yes, it is low, and so are kit completions, with the possible exception of Van’s quick build kits.

Spending time on a project is a requirement, regardless of one’s method of achieving that. Another factor is the sense of achievement that comes from making visible progress. Learning what is acceptable verses not acceptable, and learning how to make progress without wasting time is important.


BJC

 

[Vigilant1]

Out of those 7 I’d say 5 always lie to me at the front door. They say “sorry about the mess we are in the middle of cleaning”.


This actually happens daily every day all week all year for my entire career. People are messy and crap is everywhere and then they lie and tell me I somehow caught them in the middle of cleaning.

Well, they are probably lying to themselves first. They are planning to deal with the clutter, someday (who could live with it or themselves if they believed their house would always look like that?) Anyway, surely they are embarrassed by the situation and feel acknowledging that it is a pig sty is preferable to saying nothing. But their situation will never change until they change their behavior (and their routines). Unless there is a providential fire ...

Good thread. Sorry for my confessional posts.

 

[narfi]

It is interesting to see how different people approach the problem even if its different than your own.
I think for me it bottles down differently. Simplifying life as a whole increases the value in all of your main points, family, marriage, carrier, health, and property ownership.
We have worked hard over the last 5 years or so to throw away 'junk' and collect less, all that stuff you think you 'need' isn't really a need its just cluttering your life and hindering your bigger goals.
Embracing specialization. It is better for us to work a couple hours of overtime and higher professionals to do the maintenance. This works out better for time, money, and leaves my mind free to think about the more important family, marriage, carrier and hobbies.
I work 2 jobs and wife works 3, but this allows us more time and less stress while renovating the three floors of our house over the last few years, when things like the septic system giving out in the middle of the winter for a very expensive replacement, the new shop project planed for next summer, etc..... By planning to work more and higher specialists, we have no stress, and it is done more efficiently and done right the first time, rather than all the stress of me teaching myself and screwing up once or twice to save a few dollars at 10x the time to do it.
It is counter to the culture I live in, where self reliance is valued more highly than in most of the country, but imo you have to balance that in the best use of your time and resources.

It is interesting that we have a similar 'potential' weekly hours for our hobby, and I really like that term for it, because it is so accurate. I have the same potential as you and am able to use roughly 1/2 that potential in an average week. (also recognize you have at least more than one hobby..... video production takes time you could have been building, not bad, but needs to be recognized)

With the simplification of life, I think that I can overlap many of your categories as well.
Family - Part of my hope in my hobbies is to involve my son in them, we discuss plans, he even 'helps' some, we watch videos about planes and boats on youtube, and he shares his dreams and crazy ideas. He visits the hangar where I work as my carrier, and is self motivated to 'find discrepancies' on planes the mechanics are inspecting, or to bum rides whenever he can.
Marriage - Sharing hopes and dreams, talking about projects and involving her in helping with some of the building processes. A healthy marriage includes activities together and apart.
Carrier - Easy for me, I work with experts in my hobbies. Break time is much more entertaining when discussing different aspects of building or systems than when discussing rather someone prefers a rude or weak leader of which everyone is an 'expert' because they watched their favorite biased station the night before.......
Health - Time spent building is immensely more healthy and active than the hobbies of my youth which were reading and video games.... A healthy happy hobby makes for a healthier happier person, time routinely spent doing something you enjoy is good for your health, it shouldn't be a 'job'.
Maintenance - There is always maintenance in home ownership and life, but you are only more prepared to deal with it when your hobby includes the collection of tools and resources and the understanding of different systems and the use of your hands.

Ultimately for me a hobby is something I want to do, it is what I think about, its not something I have to make time for, because when there is time, that is what I am doing. It is what I get called in for dinner from, it is what I research when reading before bed, etc.... It doesn't have to detract from all of my other responsibilities in life because I have made my life simple enough to have those voids.

 

[Little Scrapper]

It is interesting to see how different people approach the problem even if its different than your own.
I think for me it bottles down differently. Simplifying life as a whole increases the value in all of your main points, family, marriage, carrier, health, and property ownership.
We have worked hard over the last 5 years or so to throw away 'junk' and collect less, all that stuff you think you 'need' isn't really a need its just cluttering your life and hindering your bigger goals.
Embracing specialization. It is better for us to work a couple hours of overtime and higher professionals to do the maintenance. This works out better for time, money, and leaves my mind free to think about the more important family, marriage, carrier and hobbies.
I work 2 jobs and wife works 3, but this allows us more time and less stress while renovating the three floors of our house over the last few years, when things like the septic system giving out in the middle of the winter for a very expensive replacement, the new shop project planed for next summer, etc..... By planning to work more and higher specialists, we have no stress, and it is done more efficiently and done right the first time, rather than all the stress of me teaching myself and screwing up once or twice to save a few dollars at 10x the time to do it.
It is counter to the culture I live in, where self reliance is valued more highly than in most of the country, but imo you have to balance that in the best use of your time and resources.

It is interesting that we have a similar 'potential' weekly hours for our hobby, and I really like that term for it, because it is so accurate. I have the same potential as you and am able to use roughly 1/2 that potential in an average week. (also recognize you have at least more than one hobby..... video production takes time you could have been building, not bad, but needs to be recognized)

With the simplification of life, I think that I can overlap many of your categories as well.
Family - Part of my hope in my hobbies is to involve my son in them, we discuss plans, he even 'helps' some, we watch videos about planes and boats on youtube, and he shares his dreams and crazy ideas. He visits the hangar where I work as my carrier, and is self motivated to 'find discrepancies' on planes the mechanics are inspecting, or to bum rides whenever he can.
Marriage - Sharing hopes and dreams, talking about projects and involving her in helping with some of the building processes. A healthy marriage includes activities together and apart.
Carrier - Easy for me, I work with experts in my hobbies. Break time is much more entertaining when discussing different aspects of building or systems than when discussing rather someone prefers a rude or weak leader of which everyone is an 'expert' because they watched their favorite biased station the night before.......
Health - Time spent building is immensely more healthy and active than the hobbies of my youth which were reading and video games.... A healthy happy hobby makes for a healthier happier person, time routinely spent doing something you enjoy is good for your health, it shouldn't be a 'job'.
Maintenance - There is always maintenance in home ownership and life, but you are only more prepared to deal with it when your hobby includes the collection of tools and resources and the understanding of different systems and the use of your hands.

Ultimately for me a hobby is something I want to do, it is what I think about, its not something I have to make time for, because when there is time, that is what I am doing. It is what I get called in for dinner from, it is what I research when reading before bed, etc.... It doesn't have to detract from all of my other responsibilities in life because I have made my life simple enough to have those voids.

Some people can lead a simple life and that’s certainly a good point. My life has a lot of balls in the air, nothing simple about it. My volunteer work alone is quite a endeavor in itself. I’m on committees, I sponsor events and fundraisers etc. I enjoy that part of life.

And you’re right about a hobby just kinda filling in those time voids. For some that works.

My goal is to fly it and complete it in a reasonable time frame and that’s what really changes things. A 10 - 20 year time frame? I’d probably not care at all but that not my goal. Wings done and mounted on a finished fuselage by summer is my goal.

Time frames change everything. When time Is introduced in to the equation other things start to matter like efficiency, routines, habits, schedule. So I would say that’s a different type of builder too.

For the record, I don’t spend much time on videos. There’s no editing. I hit record on my phone and just let r rip. I upload what you see immediately and it’s automatic with zero editing at all.

 

[narfi]

Time frames change everything. When time Is introduced in to the equation other things start to matter like efficiency, routines, habits, schedule. So I would say that’s a different type of builder too.

Yes of course, but it also changes the equation of what it is.... it's no longer a 'hobby' and becomes a 'job', and in turn ends up sucking the fun out of it. (for me)
We saw this when we were finishing the powerboat last summer, with covid an no vacations in the spring, it was our 'out' for the summer to get some sort of vacation feel in, so the push was on to finish it fast, which in turn changed a fun hobby into a more stressful 'job'. As everything, there has to be a balance, which ends up tipping differently for each of us

 

[Little Scrapper]

Yes of course, but it also changes the equation of what it is.... it's no longer a 'hobby' and becomes a 'job', and in turn ends up sucking the fun out of it. (for me)
We saw this when we were finishing the powerboat last summer, with covid an no vacations in the spring, it was our 'out' for the summer to get some sort of vacation feel in, so the push was on to finish it fast, which in turn changed a fun hobby into a more stressful 'job'. As everything, there has to be a balance, which ends up tipping differently for each of us

Maybe for some but not me. I’ve been in homebuilt airplanes, I love flying, it’s absolutely awesome in every way! Getting it done is just half the equation. For me at least the idea of getting it done sooner rather than later isn’t a job it’s exciting! It’s motivating!

How long have you been building your airplane? How much build time have you personally experienced? Those things play in to it. As I’ve aged and watched friends and family die of age or cancer or just a dam accidentI’ve become more in tune with life and time. Time matters. Flying a open cockpit airplane I made to a local fly in is very appealing to me at my current life stage.

So while it may be a “job” to some people for others it’s just part of the total process. Being efficient feels good. Achieving goals feels good. Completing parts of a build feels good. That’s not a job to me that’s what success looks like.

Again, I don’t know where you are in your build or life story but I can tell you this..... Putting my fuselage together felt great! Finish welding it felt great! Building the turtle deck felt great, my control stick and bearings was absolutely a blast. The seat frame was crazy fun!!! Spending 3 years building a turtle deck? Or 2 years building a fuselage? I find that demotivating. There’ no fun In not seeing progress. So I don’t know, I see it a bit different.

Balance I think is a sort of myth too. Great things take lots of energy and time and something will be sacrificed to get it in a time frame that’s reasonable.

 

[narfi]

Perhaps we are using different definitions.....
For me personaly, working 50-70hrs per week, a hobby is 20-30hrs a week or less.
40+ hours a week on that same hobby with the stress of a time limit = no fun. (well to be fair.... less fun)

I have worked 20+ years on airplanes under the stress of time limits, no need to do the same in my free time.
When we were making the final push on the boat, I was putting in ~5-10hrs a day 7 days a week to get it ready to paint. Wife was often out there sanding along with me. In the end it was worth it, but it took the 'fun' out of my hobby, and moved it into the 'job' realm.
I only have 40ish hours into our plane I am very happy with my progress as a hobby so far, but would not be satisficed with the progress if it was 'on the clock'.
I don't think that makes me any 'less' qualified to have opinions on how I use my time, I have years of home building our canoe and 17ft powerboat and 20+ working on and rebuilding certified small aircraft. The current plane will only take me a couple of years after which my wife and I plan to build a very large boat (floating apartment) which will take us 5+ years. There has to be a defined difference planned ahead between 'hobby', and 'job'. You can not allow yourself to be burned out, and you can not go months without accomplishing anything. There very much has to be a balance

btw. sparing in good fun, probably no need for a disclaimer, but intent over the internet is easily misunderstood

 

[Little Scrapper]

Perhaps we are using different definitions.....
For me personaly, working 50-70hrs per week, a hobby is 20-30hrs a week or less.
40+ hours a week on that same hobby with the stress of a time limit = no fun. (well to be fair.... less fun)

I have worked 20+ years on airplanes under the stress of time limits, no need to do the same in my free time.
When we were making the final push on the boat, I was putting in ~5-10hrs a day 7 days a week to get it ready to paint. Wife was often out there sanding along with me. In the end it was worth it, but it took the 'fun' out of my hobby, and moved it into the 'job' realm.
I only have 40ish hours into our plane I am very happy with my progress as a hobby so far, but would not be satisficed with the progress if it was 'on the clock'.
I don't think that makes me any 'less' qualified to have opinions on how I use my time, I have years of home building our canoe and 17ft powerboat and 20+ working on and rebuilding certified small aircraft. The current plane will only take me a couple of years after which my wife and I plan to build a very large boat (floating apartment) which will take us 5+ years. There has to be a defined difference planned ahead between 'hobby', and 'job'. You can not allow yourself to be burned out, and you can not go months without accomplishing anything. There very much has to be a balance

btw. sparing in good fun, probably no need for a disclaimer, but intent over the internet is easily misunderstood

I never said or implied you were less qualified. You came up with that on your own. It was just a question, nothing to read in to.

I’ve never ever looked at hobbies as a job or a pain, I’ve never felt that way about it either. Being efficient doesn’t make it a job it just makes it efficient. Maybe other people look at the things I write as a pain or a job or something to dread. I would say it’s best to avoid the thread or start your own thread if you’re not interested in my thoughts on this. I knew when I started this thread I would meet resistance, I saw that coming a mile away.

There’s a extremely high probability you’ll be $10’s of thousands of dollars invested in your project and it will stall. Look the the completions thread here, very rare. The longer it takes the higher the odds of failure if your goal is to fly it. Simple observations tell us that.

As I clearly indicate in all my videos and posts, we are all unique. I’m after the rare exception of people who finish airplanes not just work on them. That includes myself, while I certainly love building I also love the rest of homebuilt aviation which includes flying and events and people. Nothing about that is easy. This is not a simple small hobby if your goal is to fly the very thing you make.

If anyone is interested in flying what they build I’d say this is a great thread to participate in and help come up with ideas and plans. If your goal is to randomly spend thousands on materials and tools with no end goal of flying in a reasonable amount of time I’d say this is not a thread for you.

So far there’s been zero people on this thread that have said........

“I have completed and flown a airplane from scratch and here is what I learned about being efficient and building that can help with a solution”. All that tells me is it’s up to me to make that happen. Again, I expected resistance and opposition. Human nature I suppose. That is also a good indicator or how many people have succeeded.

Flying a homebuilt you built from scratch is a very difficult endeavor. That much is clear. Working on a airplane? Everyone does that.

 

[narfi]

There’s a extremely high probability you’ll be $10’s of thousands of dollars invested in your project and it will stall.

While statistically true, considering me a statistic is offensive.....

I do things differently than you and view them differently, that does not make either of us wrong.
I finish my build projects by staying on track through to the end, I finish my build projects by sticking to one project at a time and committing my free (potential hobby) time solely to that one project. I am able to do this by simplifying my life and my free time.

There is nothing magic about an airplane, it is no different than building a house, or a boat, or a rollercoaster in your back yard, some combination of time, money and commitment gets you a finished project. All three of those are easily siphoned off in other directions. I am successful at finishing my projects because I have built the lifestyle and habits that reduce the siphoning effect from those goals.

So far there’s been zero people on this thread

pretty sure Pops flies his own planes....... probably a couple other posters as well.