# The most profitable option for a new propulsion system? (DEKAIR)

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by DangerZone, Aug 17, 2019.

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1. Aug 18, 2019

### Marc Zeitlin

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It was the friend's uncle's brother-in-law's 2nd cousin - not the friend. And it was a 100 mpg carb, and it ran on water.

2. Aug 18, 2019

### BJC

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YES! That was it.

Thanks for the reminder.

BJC

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3. Aug 18, 2019

### Hot Wings

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Not water, Brown's gas. Get the facts straight.

4. Aug 18, 2019

### Hephaestus

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I thought it was hho now because the scam websites all covered browns gas.

Oops.

5. Aug 19, 2019

### mcrae0104

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No, really! He took his life into his own hands driving without a deer whistle. Don't be another statistic.

6. Aug 19, 2019

### Wanttaja

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This thread reminds me of John Varley's novel, "Red Thunder." An idiot savant develops a drive that "pushes" without consumables, and give a high degree of thrust. A retired, alcoholic astronaut assembles a team of high school kids to construct a spacecraft to travel to Mars.

What's fun is that Varley keeps the rest of the technology realistic. If you're not limited by the standard thrust/fuel limits, what can you do?

Spacecraft structure? Has to have the volume, has to hold pressure, has to be strong enough to withstand ~3 Gs of continuous thrust. There *is* no practical weight limit. So Varley's characters build the thing out of railroad tank cars. Since they're going to near-continuous thrust, they can have "normal" kitches, toilets, etc.

Varley addresses the secrecy/national security/publicity impacts, too.

This is an excellent "what if" book..."what if" mass was no longer a factor in space travel?

Great story, I recommend it highly. The later books go a bit stranger (and are set more in the future), but still interesting to read.

Ron Wanttaja

7. Aug 19, 2019

### Speedboat100

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Yes and actually 1 G constant would take us to Proxima Centaur within our lifetime easily..and back. Unfortunately those left behind would be several years older once you get back.

8. Aug 19, 2019

### mcrae0104

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Topspeed, if you kept a lower profile you might have remained undiscovered. Best luck on your journey to the stars.

9. Aug 19, 2019

### Speedboat100

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Are you treathening me ?

10. Aug 19, 2019

### mcrae0104

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Certainly not. (Particularly not unless you're not answering to the name of a previously banned member--and even then, I have no threat to offer since I am just a plain old member, like everyone else here). Only wishing you good luck as you pedal to the stars. Warm wishes, friend.

11. Aug 19, 2019

### Speedboat100

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Why are you pedalling to the stars I don't get it ?

12. Aug 19, 2019

### mcrae0104

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You can play dumb all you like. Everyone knows who you are, Topspeed100.

13. Aug 19, 2019

### Speedboat100

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Try to stay on the topic...do you think one can pedal to the starts...how do you make that happen ?

14. Aug 19, 2019

### mcrae0104

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You can play dumb all you like. Everyone knows who you are, Topspeed100.

15. Aug 19, 2019

### DangerZone

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The problem with Moller's ducted fans is that it does not seem to have a practical use or a market demand.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/news/a27320/moller-flying-car/

A DEKAIR is something different, beyond hypersonic. A couple orders of magnitude more complex and risky.

The DEKAIR options are limited because it may be used as a weapon just like the nukes did at the end of WW2. A 1G continuous acceleration limited only by drag within the atmosphere is something beyond ballistic missiles, without a heat signature.

Are you sure that going public in the DEKAIR case would be smart?

Could you imagine some Middle East extremist being able to access this technology and install it into an existing SCUD or similar missile to adjust the range so it could reach NYC and strike the new built Twins? So he could be able to cheer "Allahu Ekbar" among his flock of sheep, happy that he killed 'Ze Evil Americuns'? No way, I got friends in NYC. Some Russians and Chinese would also love it in a public domain.

I got nothing against going public, but only if such an invention is within control. Preferably accessible to only NATO members and within the EU/USA.

Duplication is ok as long as it is controlled and respected. I do not need to count on getting rich, I have a decent living and some real estate which makes me happy even without the fuss of production. Yet if something takes your time, you will certainly want money for your work. If you gotta chose between getting money or spending some time with your family, you will chose according to your choice. Hence homebuilding is also not a choice, it would require too much time and money.

Eric Laithwaite did not patent many of his inventions, Nikola Tesla also skipped quite a few. Many inventors of some really new technology rather tend to arrange a good trade deal with someone who is interested in the system than patent a new propulsion system and then wait for investors. So you are right, there has to be some limited access to how to build a propulsion system.

You are absolutely right, this could only be done in countries where there is respect of Law.

There is a Japanese guy who want to go to Mars, Yusaku Maezawa or something similar. Hence a market for such a propulsion system (read - money source) exists, if there are really people who would actually go to Mars. I personnally prefer Earth and flying around this lovely blue planet, but would be interested to share some trade secrets with those who would have similar interests as I do.

Licencing to two outlets seem like an odd idea, unless both of them build the ships locally at the same factory. Or did you mean to agree on a contract to two outlets so they could finance only the ship building, and I control the powerplant?

16. Aug 19, 2019

### BJC

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17. Aug 19, 2019

### bmcj

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OK, this is quite removed from the forum’s theme of homebuilt airplanes, but I’ll throw my 2 cents worth in...

What about electrically generated magnetic thrust produced by emitting ions near the nose and collecting them near the tail. No loss of mass, but you gain thrust by expelling the ions rearward, then pulling yourself forward toward the ions to collect them. Sure, thrust levels won’t be very high, but they would be sustainable as long as you have electrical power. They recently flew an ion powered free flight model, though i think it relied on ionizing the surrounding air. Could this work in a vacuum, or do you counter your impulse by the need to recycle those ions internally back to the emitters in the nose.

By the way, as far as the ‘magic carburetor’ discussion goes, I had a friend (Flavio Madariaga, the owner and “Fla” part of Flabob airport) who had his own invention. He had two carbs and two fuel tanks. One set ran premium gas for starting and accelerating, and then it would switch over to the other set with the cheap low grade fuel (could be just about any fuel mix) for the low demand cruise drive.

18. Aug 19, 2019

### Wanttaja

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Ion thrusters are actually getting pretty common. They have an incredible specific impulse (Isp)...around 3,000, vs. ~200 for conventional rockets. A lot of Geosynchronous satellites are using them for station-keeping now, and a few years back, a satellite placed in the wrong orbit by a misfunctioning upper stage actually got herded back into the right orbit using electronic propulsion.

The problem with ion propusion is the low thrust levels. We're talking micropounds. Doesn't matter, in space, just takes a long time to get anywhere. Not really going to be suitable for humans, and you still need the big ugly rockets to get out of the gravity holes.

Larry Niven put it best: "The entire universe is waiting for us to invent anti-gravity...."

Ron Wanttaja

19. Aug 19, 2019

### BJC

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A friend, circa 1974, devised a way to shut down 4 cylinders of his Buick V8 when cruising on the highway. It worked well; he drove it over 20,000 miles, and offered it to GM for $1,000,000. They countered with$10,000. I encouraged him to take it, but everyone else told him to hold out. He ended up getting nothing.

This does have an HBA tie-in. There is a thread about converting V6 auto engines for HBA, with comments about what advanced technology controls to retain. I recently drove almost 3,000 miles to Oshkosh and back, in my 6 cylinder Honda truck, with “Economy mode” selected. That meant that when I was not accelerating on the highway, only 3 cylinders were operating. I definitely would remove that control were I to put that engine in an airplane.

BJC

20. Aug 19, 2019

### BJC

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His market was not the flying public; it was rich, technically ignorant investors. He was very successful - he stayed in business for decades and never had to deliver a product. In fact, he never even flew his machine untethered.

Right.

Well never mind the laws of physics, that alone eliminates its ever being done.

BJC