Single engine 300-400hp pusher

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by KC135DELTA, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. Nov 29, 2010 #121

    gschuld

    gschuld

    gschuld

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    [​IMG]

    Casale drive units were part of the original design for the E-Racer. They were basically a v-drive unit with parallel shafts with outputs on opposite ends. The pic above is of the inside showing the gears. The one below is the model that Casale makes that E-racer have used to modify for use as redrives.

    [​IMG]

    MODELS

    I have NO IDEA how well they work in aircraft, but the v-drive drag boat guys love them.

    George
     
  2. Dec 1, 2010 #122

    Bigorneau

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    hi George
    :tired:
    That work correctly without vibrations or resonance.
    :devious:
    Your first pic is not the pic of casale used on e-racer:
    :ponder:gear are helicoƮdal, :ponder:bearing are ball bearing, :depressedinput and output are not as your other pic.
    :shock:input support a damper (flector system) to connect to drive line by spline.
    output support the set to connect propeller with another spline tree.

    Joe
     
  3. Dec 1, 2010 #123

    Voyeurger

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    From Auto Reply: "And for your information; last summer only I've driven 50+ passes that were over 6500 ft high"

    You are a very lucky man to get that much saddle time, in those environs! SAWEET!
     
  4. Dec 3, 2010 #124

    Starman

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    I goggled it and didnt' see anyone selling those. I kind of like and inline psru, but just out of curiosity please, how much does one of those go for and where do they sell them? I guess I need to call some local boat dealers.
     
  5. Dec 3, 2010 #125

    Toobuilder

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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  6. Dec 4, 2010 #126

    Starman

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    Thanks for the tip, first I'll ask the wrecking yard to leave the existing one on, and the starter.

    Casale looks too expensive, $1500 for a couple of gears and 600 for some couplings and shafts, evidently that doesn't include the box either. My choice is a Winters VRT. I haven't priced it yet, but it's probably less than the Casale gears. Second choice is my fall back unit, an airboat psru, Orion gave away my secret supply of inexpensive reliable PSRUs :)
     
  7. Dec 4, 2010 #127

    Toobuilder

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    "Your" engine does not have this style flexplate - it is unique to the Corvette. The GTO version, like most cars, is simply a flat plate to which the torque converter attaches. The Corvette has a rear mounted transaxle, so the converter is driven by a long shaft splined to the hub you see pictured. These are ~$300 bucks from GM - but the eBay link I gave you is from a guy who has a few taken off brand new crate engines. He's giving them away at $29 bucks - grab one now or be very sorry later. I'm thinking of grabbing another one myself
     
  8. Dec 4, 2010 #128

    Starman

    Starman

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    Thanks, I ordered one. If you see any those Corvette torsion bar drive shafts lying around please let me know.
     
  9. Dec 6, 2010 #129

    Toobuilder

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    They're readily available from all the normal sources. Grab an automatic bellhousing at the very least. They're available used for about $60 bucks. If you can, grab the whole torque tube assembly - you can use at least the front half to drive adapt to your PSRU. If you will note, it has a flex coupling built in. If you are REALLY lucky, the rear bellhousing can be adapted to the PSRU.

    0104261Y05-018.jpg
     
  10. Aug 5, 2011 #130

    Redhand

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    Great thread, and helpful.
    What comments might the contributors offer to a project with a blown 351W V8 @ 4000 rpm driving a fan via a 2.82:1 a polychain belt 'increaser' into a 36" long by 1.5 dia. x .090 wall 4130N shaft with an intermediate baring, and with Zurn geared couplings each end?
     
  11. Aug 11, 2011 #131

    Aircar

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    I second the great thread comment --readers might want to check out my 1974 shaft drive pusher design "Opal" under "Australian Opal..." on this forum site (different thread) -- one overlooked shaft drive pusher was the Fischer RW3 Multoplane from about 1955 --it used a Mercedes tailshaft ( I have the manuals for it and corresponded with Herr Hanno Fischer once about the drive system dynamics ) Norman commented about the effect of the fuselage wake on efficiency etc --and others spoke about undercarriage leg length as drawbacks of the tailpusher configuration -- both are right but solved by the Opal layout (and similar like the BD5/BD7 etc and the Multoplane . The Poschel Equator (add umlaut...) had a tractor prop in the rear so is not technically a pusher at all but great video and thanks for the link ! -- by placing the prop aft of the fin you can angle the thrust line down so that the thrust moment is less and in addition the propeller normal force offsets any remaining moment while the T tail ahead and ABOVE the prop axis sees a 'downwash' inflow that trims the low speed high thrust case .

    I went through 44 different drive system designs and invented a new type of coupling in the course of driveline development but had to admit that the suggestion of my old Mechanics lecturer (the late David Collyer of RMIT ) was an inspired and simple solution --namely a BENT driveshaft . The radius of bend was very low to get the geometry right and well within the fatigue free zone for 4130 and the effect of a bend is to stabilize the whipping and torsional modes (for a small diameter thick wall shaft ) --study the photos to see the basic shaft set up and I will try to get my IT expert to help send a cutaway drawing showing the original drive joint which was obsoleted by the simple bent shaft concept . Since that time (1970s) a new CV joint called "Thompson coupling" has come on the market developed in Australia along with a number of other CV joints and couplings . Molt Taylor was very helpful with advice and testing of a shaft drive twin prop amphibian using the flexidyne here (the FSRW 1 ) was also helpful . I have a folio of over one hundred tail pusher designs including a number of German WW2 designs that transmitted over 2000 HP --also the Do335 push pull and papers on the XB42 .

    I think that shaft drive pushers are eminently sensible and open up lots of advantages including getting a decent cockpit view not needing to peer over and around an engine --sailplane like . Roadable aircraft pretty much have to have some sort of shaft drive and probably pushers so get much study as well.
     
  12. Aug 12, 2011 #132

    Redhand

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    AIRCAR. Very nice. I Googled your Australian Opal and enjoyed the info and photos. Also you comments on the bent driveshaft... and mention of Molt Taylor and the Flexidyne. I too corresponded with Molt and received his assistance related to the Flexidyne, when I was restoring the tail-prop Waco AristoCraft I acquired back in 1961. That was after its FAA-Approved for 'infinite life' engine-to-driveshaft-coupling failed in startup, as did the spare coupling. So I bought the larger size 11C Flexidyne and modified it to replace the steel-rubber-steel Firestone coupling, and it worked fine for awhile, until it failed going downwind. The engine revved and I shut it off, and the prop and shaft kept free-turning. Luckily it happened conveniently in perfect position for a power-off landing and rolling up to my hangar. There I removed the unit and disassembled it, to find Dodge engineers had bolted the Flexidyne's rotor plate to the shaft-side with six Allen screws in shear across the threads (!)... a no-no. So I redesigned it to use shoulder bolts, which increased the fastener cross-sectional area about four times. No further problems. Flew it to the EAA Fly-In at Rockford in 1965.
    Seems a little strange that cars, trucks and even ships use millions of driveshafts, but airplanes can't seem to get it right. Maybe we're trying too hard.
     
  13. Aug 14, 2011 #133

    Aircar

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    I remember the story about the Aristocraft 'disaster' maybe from Contact mag or somewhere else --you must be Terry O' Neil as in "Pea Pod" prone, canard, fin mounted tractor prop Mc culloch two stroke and scimitar prop,...... and later the four wheel undercarriage ("landing gear" to you Yanks...) "Magnum" -- am I right ??

    In my files are a few of the original articles on the Waco Aristocraft -- similar to the recent Terrafugia Transition MK1 in that it had nose engine and rear prop with shaft drive (unusual layout but insensitive to pilot weights --the Taylor Bullet and another much earlier pusher also did that )

    Must have been an exciting first flight ! -- I planned to use a Flexidyne or overunning clutch as first link in the drive train and the flexed steel shaft should have been trouble free although I never got to complete the test system set up (using a crashed Grumman Lynx that I used as an engine test bed with the shafting going forward from the original prop flange --all the engine controls as for the Lynx --I bought the wreck from the insurance company for very low dollars and repaired and sold the wings and other salvagable bits and zero timed the engine .

    Rubber doughnut type joints seem like an opportunity to store energy in a drive line apart from perishing as you found --putting threads in bearing is real bad practice as you note --shaft drive aircraft seem to have a bad reputation despite the P39 (and XB 42 using twelve P39 shafts..) and millions of motor cars ..as you say (the damping is way less than rubber tyre to road and clutches etc soak up resonance but aircraft design is very limited by having to direct drive props )

    It would be really nice to know what happened with the Aristocraft AND "Pea Pod " --any chance of a report ? (It's in my files also and implanted in my teenage memory from "AirProgress"......hard to forget. )

    Cheers Ross.
     
  14. Aug 19, 2011 #134

    Redhand

    Redhand

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    Ross, yes, guilty. I taxi-tested the Peapod and dound it needed a much better lanmding gear and mods to the pitch control, etc. Too much at the time; and then the Waco came along.
    The Waco was flown to the EAA FlyIn in 1965 and won Rarest Antique award. After that, not much coujld be done iwth it because it was Airworthy in R&D Category of Experimental. I finally decided to try to make an inexpensive 6-seater out of it, and started a companyu, and designed and amde the Model W, which used only the wings. Managed to get an FAA Provisional TC, just as the GenAv market crashed, and we ran out of funds. Refunded two production orders, paid all the bills, gave the bad news to the stockholders including myself, and closed the doors. Next, pasrt-time, I did a bush plane, but the market was till dead. Modified a Mitchell Wing, and we flew a Dragonfly around for a few years before buying an incomplete Lancair 235/320... seven years later we flew... and for four more years now; but in the garage shop there's a new project, which uses the drive shaft etc. noted above. Nevere give up! This one's for fun and the max possible coss-country performance.
    : )
    RedHand (nom de plume)
     
  15. Aug 22, 2011 #135

    Aircar

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    Thanks for the update and background "redhand" -- the road to perdition (aircraft company founding ) is certainly a long and rocky one as we who have been down it come to know . Much has happened in the years since the mid sixties (although it was a sort of 'magic' time what with the space program bringing dreams to life and the popular music reaching a pinnacle of variety and freshness in my view --all pretty optimistic and only a few shadows for the general public from the Vietnam war and some other societal tensions going on) but things always look rosier in retrospect I guess . The wave of innovations in aircraft development from the fifties onward was not reflected in the EAA with the exceptions of Ed Lesher's work, Molt Taylor,John Dyke and a few other outliers --with Rutan et al a few years into the future so conceiving something as radical as the Pea Pod was a real credit to you (and well before prone piloted hang gliders became popular or Rutan gave new life to the canard ) Maybe some of the readers of this forum would like to see a photo or two of it (or the Aristocraft or your other work (unless you would have to kill us all afterwards...)

    If my, once reliable, memory serves me right the Aristocraft also had a corrugated wing (and tail) skin (?) --something raised on the most recent thread on the HBA forum (New NASA design?)
    I just checked in again after a week or so away and posted a comment about that (on the NASA Tailfan -- itself being 'related' to the Aristocraft in a family sense )

    Let's all keep chipping away --diehards the lot of us!

    regards Ross Nolan. aka Aircar.... Under my name in Oshkosh 365...)
     
  16. Sep 4, 2011 #136

    billyvray

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    Mr. Oneill,

    You asked for it. You've been involved in some very unique designs just like Mr. Nolan. Would you mind posting more (with pics?!) of your adventures. I'm particularly interested in the Magnum Pickup bush plane. This would definitely be worthy of its own thread.

    ~Bill in Georgia


     
  17. Apr 19, 2013 #137

    dugnology

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    omg! i followed thw pea ps (one that did not fly) since I was ...3 maybe 4... CAN U SUPPLY ANY PICS OR THREE VIEWS?
     

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