Rotax 582 Alternative Possibility

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Yellowhammer

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Feb 21, 2020
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107
Greetings,

I have been searching high and low for an affordable, viable alternative for the Rotax 582 two stroke engine.

I am certain that this topic has been covered time and time again but I would like to see what you all think about my possible alternative four stroke engine. Also, I am fairly new the H.B.A.

Rotax manufactures the four stroke 600 Ace engine. According to their website specifications the engine weighs 40 kg or 82 pounds. It is has two cylinders and rated at 57 hp and was designed to be used on a snow sled.

Thanks for your thoughts, time, and consideration on this matter.

Respectfully,
Yellowhammer
 

delta

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Brookside Utah
Talk to the guys in a dealers shop and see what they have to say about them. Reliability issues may take a year or two to surface in terms of timing components and electronics. There's some long blocks on Ebay if you want to experiment with your own induction, ignition, cooling, and reduction systems.
 

Yellowhammer

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Feb 21, 2020
Messages
107
Talk to the guys in a dealers shop and see what they have to say about them. Reliability issues may take a year or two to surface in terms of timing components and electronics. There's some long blocks on Ebay if you want to experiment with your own induction, ignition, cooling, and reduction systems.

Thanks Delta. I have been thinking about that for a little while.
 

aeromomentum

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Stuart, FL USA
From other forums the design life of the 600 ETEC is 10,000 miles in a snow machine or about 200 to 400 hours. About the same as a 582. From these same forums it seems that many (most?) do not make this but a lot can depend on how they are operated and maintained.
 

daveklingler

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Albuquerque
Ma
From other forums the design life of the 600 ETEC is 10,000 miles in a snow machine or about 200 to 400 hours. About the same as a 582. From these same forums it seems that many (most?) do not make this but a lot can depend on how they are operated and maintained.
Mark, have you considered adapting your PSRU to fit a 600 or 850 ETEC? Well...I'm sure you've thought about it. Did you reach a conclusion?

I've actually wondered for a while now whether a version of your drive would be a good fit, in particular for the newer 600R, which is supposed to be much more robust than the older 600.
 

daveklingler

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From other forums the design life of the 600 ETEC is 10,000 miles in a snow machine or about 200 to 400 hours. About the same as a 582. From these same forums it seems that many (most?) do not make this but a lot can depend on how they are operated and maintained.
The anecdotes I've unfortunately spent the past hour reading seem to be indicating "10,000 miles and still going strong" for the older 600 ETEC, so it may be a bit more reliable than the 582 (or 583). Of course, the redesigned 600R is purported to be much more reliable (Rotax says the "R" is for "reliability", so it may be even better.

Snowmobilers seem to really like this engine, so I've been very curious to see an aircraft conversion. I don't yet have anything to hang one on, but I'm working on it.

EDIT: I just noticed that Rotax brought out the first-ever two-stroke factory turbo this year for the 850 E-TEC, specifically intended for altitude compensation. They claim 165 HP up to 8000 feet and 155 at 10000. That should also excite a few homebuilders.
 
Last edited:

aeromomentum

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Jan 28, 2014
Messages
103
Location
Stuart, FL USA
Ma


Mark, have you considered adapting your PSRU to fit a 600 or 850 ETEC? Well...I'm sure you've thought about it. Did you reach a conclusion?

I've actually wondered for a while now whether a version of your drive would be a good fit, in particular for the newer 600R, which is supposed to be much more robust than the older 600.
Sorry, not at this time. I have run 2 stroke outboards for thousands of hours and have run 2 stroke snow machines for hundreds of hours all without any failures that were the fault of the engine so I know that a 2 stroke can be reliable and long lived. But we are too busy at the moment. I think our AM10 or AM13/15 gearbox could be made to work well with them.
 

Armilite

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From other forums the design life of the 600 ETEC is 10,000 miles in a snow machine or about 200 to 400 hours. About the same as a 582. From these same forums it seems that many (most?) do not make this but a lot can depend on how they are operated and maintained.
======================
Since nobody that I know of has ever used one of these New Generation Skidoo 2000+ Engines on a Plane we don't know How they will Work. Avg Trail Speed is 35mph. 10,000 Miles / 35mph = 285.7 hrs, and many have Failed in Sleds in the 4000-4500 Mile Range. 4500/35= 128.5 hrs. Most 2 Stroke Engine Companies for Airplanes have Standardized on 9.5cr, Skidoo/Rotax has not! Dropping the 582UL from 11.5cr to 9.5cr would be Max 4hp loss and probably less. I never saw anyone Dyno Test one of these at 10.5cr, and 9.5cr. With New Gen Engines you also have the problem of Adapting a Redrive.
 

Armilite

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Greetings,

I have been searching high and low for an affordable, viable alternative for the Rotax 582 two stroke engine.

I am certain that this topic has been covered time and time again but I would like to see what you all think about my possible alternative four stroke engine. Also, I am fairly new the H.B.A.

Rotax manufactures the four stroke 600 Ace engine. According to their website specifications the engine weighs 40 kg or 82 pounds. It is has two cylinders and rated at 57 hp and was designed to be used on a snow sled.

Thanks for your thoughts, time, and consideration on this matter.

Respectfully,
Yellowhammer
=========================

Almost every Skidoo/Rotax built 1993+ till discontinued have a Provision 8 Case! The Sled Motor's are just not finished Machined for the Gear Drive. Before that, they were Provision 4 Case. Rotax's UL Engines use Mufflers, not Tuned Pipes! Before 1993 they were Single Ignition, and 1993+ are Dual Ignition. The 377/377UL became the 380F and was never made in Dual Ignition.

The Rotax 185UL was an Industrial Engine for Water Pumps! 184.2cc/7cc = 26.3hp@6500rpm.

Skidoo 277F = Rotax 277UL Fan, and 277UL Free Air are the Fan Motor stripped down. 268.4cc/7cc = 38.3hp@6500rpm!

Skidoo 377F/380F = Rotax 377UL. 368.4/7cc = 52.6hp@6500rpm!

Skidoo 440F = Rotax 447UL. 436.7cc/7cc = 62.3hp@6500rpm!

Skidoo 470 LC = Rotax 462UL. 463cc/7cc = 66.1hp@6500rpm!

Skidoo 503F = Rotax 503UL ---> With R&D Aero Tuned Pipe made 62.3hp@6500rpm! 496.9cc/7cc = 70.9hp

Skidoo 521 LC = Rotax 532UL. 521.3cc/7cc = 74.4hp@6500rpm.

Skidoo 580/582/583 LC = 582UL ----> With R&D Aero Tuned Pipe made 80.7hp@6500rpm!

Skidoo 617 LC = 618UL ----> With R&D Aero Tuned Pipe made 90.6hp@6750rpm!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skidoo 670 LC was the last Provision 8 Engine made. It was never made into a UL Engine by Rotax. Only 1993-94 670's can be converted to Dual Ignition. ----> With R&D Aero Tuned Pipe made 103.8hp@6800rpm!

In 1993 only, Skidoo made a Provision 8 Triple I think 738cc or 748cc.
 

Armilite

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Also, every Plane has an MTOW, Max Takeoff Weight! Most Ultralights and Small Kitplanes fall in the 540 lb to 660 lb Range! What MTOW is yours? Do you really need 65hp?

MTOW 540 lbs = 244.9399 kg / 10 kg = 24.49399 kw needed = 32.84698 hp needed!

MTOW 660 lbs = 299.371 kg / 10 kg = 29.9371 kw needed = 40.14631 hp needed!
 

ToddK

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The Real Texas
A Weber/Polaris 750 seems like a perfect candidate to replace a 582. Mounting holes for a PSRU, gearbox are already there. They even have a Turbo Version. Since it cant be inverted, I would like to see some kind of tall gearbox or belt drive, to get the prop up higher.
 

dino

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florida
LSA LSA-Engines LSA850 - Wikipedia and
Helipromotion Swiss had a go with the Weber 850 several years ago but their links are dead

I'm following the Gaokin V twins used in ATVs and the Yamaha Phantom snowmobile engine as likely candidates
but they will be in my opinion at least 15 lbs heavier than the 582.

Pictured below is a Weber 850 from around 2015. I think I recall it being heavier than the 912S and about as expensive.

1584299301371.png
 
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dog

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Dec 29, 2019
Messages
294
snow,frozen water,mobile,machine for traveling on
frozen water,starting @ minus 40 ,running at minus 40 up to say max 10 ,every bit is going to
engineered for that, so if you are building an artic
ultralight then a good match.Might not work so good in florida.
 

Yellowhammer

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Feb 21, 2020
Messages
107
Also, every Plane has an MTOW, Max Takeoff Weight! Most Ultralights and Small Kitplanes fall in the 540 lb to 660 lb Range! What MTOW is yours? Do you really need 65hp?

MTOW 540 lbs = 244.9399 kg / 10 kg = 24.49399 kw needed = 32.84698 hp needed!

MTOW 660 lbs = 299.371 kg / 10 kg = 29.9371 kw needed = 40.14631 hp needed!

The designer of the Pulsar designed the plane for the 65 hp Rotax engine. So i figured I would need 65 hp.
 

Armilite

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The designer of the Pulsar designed the plane for the 65 hp Rotax engine. So i figured I would need 65 hp.
==========================

Well the Pulsar is outside the 540 lb to 660 lb Average!

Pulsar Original model, powered by a 64 hp (48 kW) Rotax 532 two-stroke powerplant and introduced in 1985 by Aero Designs. Pulsar XP (also called the XP912) Improved model, with higher gross weight, powered by an 80 hp (60 kW) Rotax 912UL four-stroke powerplant and introduced in 1992 by Aero Designs. Pulsar Series IIImproved model, powered by a 100 hp (75 kW) Rotax 912ULS four-stroke or 115 hp (86 kW) Rotax 914 turbocharged powerplant and produced by SkyStar Aircraft.Pulsar IIIImproved model, powered by an 80 hp (60 kW) Rotax 912UL four-stroke or 85 hp (63 kW) Jabiru 2200 powerplant, tricycle landing gear or conventional landing gear and produced by Pulsar Aircraft starting in 1989. A total of 500 kits were claimed to have been delivered by 2005. Pulsar SP100Super Pulsar introduced in 2001, powered by an 80 hp (60 kW) Rotax 912UL four-stroke or 120 hp (89 kW) Jabiru 3300 powerplant, Continental or Lycoming engines, produced by Pulsar Aircraft.
Specifications (Pulsar Series II)

General characteristics
  • Crew: one
  • Capacity: one passenger
  • Length: 20 ft 0 in (6.10 m)
  • Wingspan: 25 ft 0 in (7.62 m)
  • Wing area: 80 sq ft (7.4 m2)
  • Airfoil: NASA MS(1)-0313
  • Empty weight: 660 lb (299 kg)
  • Gross weight: 1,200 lb (544 kg)
  • Fuel capacity: 17 U.S. gallons (64 L; 14 imp gal)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Rotax 914 four cylinder, air and liquid-cooled, four stroke turbocharged aircraft engine, 115 hp (86 kW)
  • Propellers: 3-bladed ground adjustable composite
Performance:
  • Maximum speed: 190 mph (310 km/h, 170 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 180 mph (290 km/h, 160 kn)
  • Stall speed: 49 mph (79 km/h, 43 kn)
  • Range: 900 mi (1,400 km, 780 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 17,000 ft (5,200 m)
  • Rate of climb: 1,700 ft/min (8.6 m/s)
  • Wing loading: 15.0 lb/sq ft (73 kg/m2)
MTOW 1200 lbs = 544.3108 kg / 10 kg = 54.43108‬ kw needed = 72.99328 (73hp) needed!

With a Good Tuned Pipe at 6500rpm! Some Good Options:
Skidoo 550F = 553cc/7cc = 79hp!
503UL = 496.9cc/7cc = 70.9hp!
-----------------------------------------
532UL = 521cc/7cc = 74.4hp!
582UL = 580cc/7cc = 82.8hp!
618UL = 617cc/7cc = 88.1hp!
Rotax Rick 670 = 669cc/7cc = 95.5hp! He rates his 670's at 93hp@6350rpm!
 

dino

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florida
The Yamaha 4 cylinder engines are much more powerful and heavier than the 582. The 2 cylinder 80hp Yamaha Phazer engine is what many think could make a good 582 replacement.
 
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