Piel Emeraude

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seagull61785

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
Does anybody know if the Piel Emeraude (or Super Emeraude) has been flown with the Lycoming 0-320 150hp engine? Most of the ones I have looked at on the internet have either 90 or 100hp.

Thanks

Barry
 

Joe Fisher

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Feb 10, 2007
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1,379
Location
Galesburg, KS South east Kansas
This one I finished it has an O-320 160 out of a Piper I think Archer. Empty weight as I remember 1180 lbs. Set gorse weight at 1650 lbs 1200 f/m climb and 135 mph indicated at 2350 rpm at 5000 ft. It is one of the most well harmonized I have ever flown. It is so nice that you would hate to fly a Cessna after flying it. Joe Fisher's Album: Super Emeraude
 

seagull61785

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Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
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Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
Thanks for that TFF. I agree the 0-290 is not that common - the 0-320 would be first choice.

Thanks also Joe. Your pics are very interesting, a lot of work there.

PS - I would naturally hate to fly a Cessna any day.

Cheers

Barry
 

seagull61785

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
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Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
I have another query for all of you Emeraude experts.

Various texts I have read have stated that the Super emeraude is aerobatic. My question is HOW aerobatic? Simple loops, rolls, barrel rolls? - or anything more advanced?

Thanks

Barry
 

Joe Fisher

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Feb 10, 2007
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Galesburg, KS South east Kansas
To my eye the wings and fuselage are probably indestructible. But I am not to sure about the way the fuselage and wings are attached. It looks like positive G's should be real good but I have doubts about negative G's. There is a small bulkhead under the seat that the wing spar bolts to. The wings are trapped in the fuselage saddle in positive G's in negative G's the wing is trying to separate form the fuselage and this small bulkhead is carrying the all of load.
 
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seagull61785

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
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Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
TFF, - Agreed. That's about all I anticipated, although it would be nice to have a bit more strength to play with if you screww up a manoevre.

Joe, - Duly noted.So do the Beryl, Saphir or CAP 10 have the fuselage attachments beefed up in this area? It seems that the wings are pretty much the same (at least they look the same from the outside).

One of the reasons I am looking for design strength is not just to turn it upside down, but as the intention is for primarily a comfortable touring machine, it would give a greater confidence level when mountain flying. We have a lot of high country here in New Zealand and every so often someone comes to grief in mechanical turbulence, which can be pretty severe if you hit a rough patch.

Thanks for the replies Guys - I appreciate it.

Cheers

Barry
 

djschwartz

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Jun 21, 2008
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982
Location
Portland, Oregon
We have a lot of high country here in New Zealand and every so often someone comes to grief in mechanical turbulence, which can be pretty severe if you hit a rough patch.

Thanks for the replies Guys - I appreciate it.

Cheers

Barry
If you're worried about crash survivability then these may not be the planes for you. I had a good friend killed in an airshow accident in a CAP10. He had control problems, jammed ailerons, and had to put the airplane down hard in a field. The landing gear dug in and rotated the wing part way out of the fuselage. The problem is that the crew are strapped to the wing in these designs and as has been pointed out, the wing seems to be much stronger than the attach points, especially in the negative G direction. When this happened it flung him forward and smashed his head into the instrument panel.

FWIW, we do not believe the jammed ailerons were a flaw in the aircraft design. it appeared the cause was a loose wiring harness added for wingtip airshow pyrotechnics.

It's hard to beat a steel tube structure for crash survivability. Steel absorbs a lot of energy as it deforms and with careful design a small amount of extra weight sacrificed to strength around the crew can make a big difference. Aluminum is almost as good, again assuming crash survivability is designed in. Wood and composites tend to break apart on impact. It is still possible to design for crash survivability with these materials but it is more difficult, and my observation is that it is rarely done.
 

seagull61785

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Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
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Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
DJ,

No, not too worried about the crash survivability aspect in this case. On cross-country flights over NZ, especially in the South Island, there are lots of lovely mountains to see (and avoid). The North Island also boasts a few mountains and lots of medium height, steep hilly ranges. With the nation's tropical-maritime weather patterns (we are surrounded by at least 1,000 miles of ocean in all directions), we get quite brisk (prevailing Westerly) winds. These create sometimes quite severe mechanical turbulence and when winds over a certain strength are forecast it is a good idea not to fly too close to high ground (especially in the lee of the wind direction). On occasion some pilots/planes do get caught out and it can get pretty rough if you are flying through these areas. The best precaution is to understand your weather and local topography and/or to stay on the ground until a better day for flying. There are a few incidents on record where aircraft have been lost by breaking up. My reason for mentioning this aspect is that a stronger airframe would be less likely to succomb to extreme turbulence if caught out in this way.

You make a good point re: the comparitive merits of different structure types. I believe there is at least one example of a CAP 10 flying (in the US) where the wing is of a wooden construction and the fuselage is welded steel similar to the Pitts or Christen Eagle. This seems to me to be the best way to proceed in building this type, but so far I have not been able to source any plans that would allow this option. As the CAP 10 has mostly been a fully type-certificated and factory built aircraft, which is no longer in production it is highly unlikely that the ex-manufacturer would distribute plans for homebuilt construction. I have found out that at least five examples of the CAP 10 have been built in France over the years by homebuilders (all wood construction), but it is proving difficult to obtain a set of plans that they built from.

Because of the ancestry of the CAP 10 and its similarities to the Emeraude design, there are a lot of common features (outwardly) between the two types. My goal is to finish up with an aircraft that looks like these, has a minimum of 150 hp up front to give it a respectable cross-country performance, and hopefully be able to enjoy the odd loop or roll when the mood takes me. No serious aerobatic work at all - but a machine that I will be confident to throw around a bit. The Piel Beryl design would fit all/most of these criteria but it is a tandem 2-seater rather than a side-by-side, which is the ideal arrangement to enjoy a trip with a passenger, and tandem seating is not as sociable.

Totally agree with the comments on steel structure.

Thanks

Barry
 

djschwartz

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Jun 21, 2008
Messages
982
Location
Portland, Oregon
Barry,

I've never seen a CAP10 with a steel fuselage but there is a similar looking design with one called the "Atlantis". The EAA has the following information on it; but, the web link on the EAA's page is broken, it goes to some oddball page unrelated to the aircraft. I have no idea whether plans or kits for is are still available.

EAA - Homebuilders

The combination of steel tube fuselage and wood wing was common to all the early, and some present, monoplane aerobatic ships including my Stephens Akro. That combination works well. The newest unlimited ships have replaced the wood with graphite and though that definitely improves the strength to weight it comes at a very high price. It's cool, but hardly necessary unless one is serious about taking on world class unlimited competition.

I've been involved with homebuilding since the '70s and the Emeraude always had a reputation of being a very nice flying bird though not necessarily the simplest to build.

Some years back my parents hired a caravan and spent several weeks touring the South Island. They speak highly of the magnificent beauty of the country. I hope to make it down under one of these days myself.
 

seagull61785

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
11
Location
Maraetai Beach, New Zealand
Hi DJ,

The URL for the steel-tube fuselage CAP 10 is - Cap10 - CAP 10 For Sale

Like you I have always admired the Emeraude. Never have flown one but always been a fan of the looks.

Back in the 70's I built a set of wings for a Pitts S1, and assisted on a few other restorations (Tiger Moth etc), and got to the stage of finishing everything on the Pitts but couldn't afford to buy the Lycoming for the front end as a flying instructor wages hardly fed me, let alone allowed me to indulge myself in an expensive hobby. I sold the Pitts project to a guy who promised to let me have a fly when it was finished. (I'm still waiting).

I used to run the EAA Chapter 666 (New Zealand) in the late 70's and have still kept up my EAA membership although not directly involved for a while since having my attention rudely diverted by both marriage and parenthood in the mid-80's. It is only now that my boys are showing signs of flying away from the nest that I am coming out of retirement to return to flying (my first passion).

Yes, the only way to really see NZ is by mobile home or Winnebago-type of vehicle. An experience never-to-be-forgotten is to fly among the South Island Alps (on a calm day that is). Takes your breath away. If you saw the movie trilogy "The Lord of The Rings" you will understand what I mean.

I have never heard of the Atlantis - I'll Google it and see what I get.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it,

Cheers

Barry
 
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