Personal Flight Association

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

Dusan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
50
Location
Canada
Me and others are creating "Personal Flight Association", dedicated to enhancing the understanding of personal flight technology. It is a non-profit education and technical organization. It is a forum for interchange of information on personal flight technology. I've just put the website up couple of days ago, http://personalflight.org/. Join us if you want.

A founding member said it will make a larger impact than participating in a competition (GoFly), and without arbitrary rules to hinder efficiency and safety.

Sure, members can group together, use the knowledge and experience of all to participate into GoFly, or any other venues they see fit. It is a driving force"multiplier" as together we have more resources than separate.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
Since the referenced site is still under construction I will continue to post here.

There is a division in personal flight today similar to the division in aircraft in the thirties when aircraft were generally either heavier than air airplane or lighter than air dirigible. Today the split is between winged aircraft and powered lift; call it airplane or quadcopter (generic for four or more rotors).

I expect the web pages should allow for specified interest and comments to be identified for searches in either of the two specialty areas.

When appropriate I would like to post a report concerning the airplane class of personal flight vehicles.

I also have discussion points concerning the Semi powered rotor system of quadcopter mentioned elsewhere, I thought on this list on this list. I have not found the reference and now realize it must have been somewhere else. Has anyone else seen that proposal for a combined VTOL quadcopter/gyrocopter transition to horizontal flight.
 
Last edited:

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
7,377
Location
North Carolina
Here is a multicopter that takes off VTOL, then transitions to horizontal flight. Note how most of the heavy stuff is well forward to achieve horizontal flight stability.

If I'd entered gofly, it would have been a ring wing filled with a pilot and props. the numbers didn't look good to me, but remove that size restriction and it could be interesting.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
7,377
Location
North Carolina
A multi-gyro-copter is an interesting idea. At the simplest, two collective pitch positions, positive and negative would do it. Multi rotor means cyclic not required.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
A multi-gyro-copter is an interesting idea. At the simplest, two collective pitch positions, positive and negative would do it. Multi rotor means cyclic not required.
Still a lot of extra parts on a critical for flight high stress component. I can not picture a small light aircraft with 8 variable pitch propellers. I can picture a Kaman type gyrocopter with fixed pitch intermeshing counter rotating rotors connected by a drive that carries little power but does keep the blades syncronized and provides limited prerotor power both on the ground and in flight.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
Got the following welcome from Personal Flight.

"Hello Grant,

I'll add you to the mailing list. The purpose of the Association is to gather knowledge, and offer a place you can share ideas without being afraid somebody will steal it as you'll sign NDA upon subscribing. A membership fee is also in the works, something similar to EAA. It covers mostly small, efficient personal VTOL aircraft, something that starts to be "doable" with emerging technologies.

Dusan"

I just lost a lot of interest. Looks a lot like a closed, fee inspired, quadcopter development forum.
 

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
7,377
Location
North Carolina
Actually, you could build a multi-gyro with fixed pitch props. Airfoils work at +ve an -ve incidences. Have a small pitch angle for lifting flight and for gyro flight, you just need a greater angle of attack and it works.
 

Dusan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
50
Location
Canada
jedi,

We will have 2 sections: one public where discussions are public and we'll share public information, that will be free of charge by the way. The second section is for persons and team members that actively develop VTOL "personal aircraft", not necessarily in the form of multi-copters, and share "bleeding edge" technical information and might need help from the legal perspective. It is the place to find partners having expertise your team lacks, and I believe this will only advance the "personal flight" field. The purpose for closeness and NDA, for the second section, is to protect people so they are not afraid to share their ideas that might be patent-able.

Me personally, I dislike multi-copters for personal flight as I think they are the worst from the efficiency point of view, for three reasons: 1. multiple rotors are less efficient at creating lift than a single rotor having the same disk loading; 2. generally multi-copters are not transitioning to wing supported flight ( high L/D, high efficiency flight ), and if they do, they create a lot of drag, reducing the overall aircraft's L/D; 3. They do nothing to alleviate the "VTOL conundrum", the disparity between the thrust needed for VTOL mode vs thrust needed for cruise, wing flight.
 

Hot Wings

Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
6,916
Location
Rocky Mountains

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,994
Location
Port Townsend WA

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
A few years ago the website and associated video included below of a “Birdman” on hang glider like flapping wings went viral and made national and world news until (and also after) it was exposed as a hoax. The video was created by Dutchman Floris Kaayk AKA Jarno Smeets as a sort of fun project that apparently got out of hand.

WWW.humanbirdwings.net https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYW5G2kbrKk

Although the video was nicely done and at least semi-believable it obviously was quickly and relatively crudely made over a period of several months. The truth is that the technology to actually accomplish the birdman flight or “Personal Flight” as depicted is likely actually available or just around the corner just as the ability to go to the moon was available in the early 60’s. Can this video push a “Moon Shot for Personal Flight”? Having recently reviewed the Burt Rutan presentation as depicted in HBA Rutan Lecture thread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMSMnblzPAM). I am encouraged as this is an example of the “big leap” Burt thinks we should strive for.

This thread appears to be a logical medium to begin the process. Now is your chance to present pros and cons. Argue for or against winged flight versus rotor powered vertical lift or some other possibly hybrid system. Consider this the beginning of a winged personal flight research project. I encourage you to join in and express your views. Don’t be afraid to shoot holes in proposals. According to Burt, if at least half of the knowledgeable people involved don’t think it is crazy, the project is too easy and a waste of time.

A search of the internet will revile several sites where one can, according to the hype, “fly like a bird” or be “free as a bird”. None of the sites are actually able to deliver on the promise but I believe the capability is definitely within reach.

The desire to fly like a bird is bred within many of us as depicted by the ancient stories and myths of early manned flight. The ability to actually accomplish much more birdlike flight is within our grasp. Imagine the impact if the concept of the bird flight video was a reality. While the Apollo project put about a dozen men on the moon; this project would allow a majority of the world’s population to participate in flights that would radically change their ability to travel. Burt Rutan is amazed and dismayed that no one born after 1935 has ever walked on the moon. Isn’t it about time we did something for the younger generation to experience the thrill of flight?

I look in my back yard and see the rabbits and squirrels running about. I also see the blue jays and cardinals flying from their nest to feeding areas. What a difference flight makes. Flight is so vastly superior to ground transportation there is no denying the benefits. As I look about I see dozens more birds than I see small mammals. Yet the yard is not overpopulated with birds.

As the worlds human population grows, the ability for humans to fly becomes a necessity as opposed to a nice ability. The population of large mammals is on the decline. Elephants, tigers, rhinos and buffalo are all in danger of following the woolly mammoth into extinction. With the exception of domestic animals, large herds of mammals are on the decline. Yet large flocks of birds are so common as to be a problem in human populated areas. The pigeons of Paris and Rome are examples. In the mid western US many hundreds of starlings may roost in a single tree. Large flocks of seagulls, ducks and geese are considered a pest in several populated areas while in remote nesting areas dense colonies are common. Large bird colonies are much more common than comparable mammal communities such as prairie dog towns. It appears that high population densities tend to drive the species either underground or into the air.

What about the congested sky theory? While ATC (government run Air Traffic Control) is concerned with congestion when two planes are within 20 miles of each other large flocks of starlings and other species contain hundreds of birds within a few cubic meters of airspace and none fall from the sky after colliding.

What to do next and where can we go from here? Burt Rutan credits the great French writer Antoine de Saint-Exupery as having said:

“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”

The immensity of the sky is even greater than that of the sea. The ship of Saint-Exupery’s quote explores the surface of the sea and to a large degree the target of exploration is the line of the shore and a few miles either side of the narrow shoreline.

Saint-Exupery was an explorer of the sky. He was driven to explore the immensity of the sea and the air above it as well as the varied and remote land masses under it. He wrote about those experiences and is an inspiration to those of us who are chosen to follow in his footsteps. It is a great and wonderful journey and you are welcome to come along.

Your job, if you accept it, is to bask in the morning sunshine and admire the emerging day. Listen to the morning doves and meadow larks sing as they take wing to explore a new day. Imagine soaring among mid day thermals and searching the endless sky. Feel the cooling breeze. Rise and fly about. Keep an eye on building storm clouds so you may fly another day. Then imagine flight among green meadows as the day begins to fade. Enjoy the fading beauty as the sun begins to set. Dream of future flights as you plan to make them real.

If this journey is for you the time and place to join is here.
 
Last edited:

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,994
Location
Port Townsend WA
It's relatively easy for small birds and insects to fly and climb almost vertical. Not for large stuff or humans. Powered human flight is difficult.
Humans can glide and have mastered hang gliding. Some think the pterodactyl was a hang glider for takeoff and could not launch from flat land.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49746642/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/pterodactyl-was-so-big-it-couldnt-fly-scientist-claims/#.Wy-u0etHarU

Burt didn't design an ultralight. Might have been too difficult? Burt apparently didn't finish his roadable airplane either (Bipod).
 

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,994
Location
Port Townsend WA
I put about three years into researching a large low powered helicopter. Sort of like the large, frail human powered helicopter but smaller and stronger. Something like 60 foot span rotor. It could be powered by a lawn mower engine and with a good muffler would make it almost silent. My thought was to never go higher than 10 feet.
I just never figured how to make it reasonably safe enough to go up vertically above 10 feet. Rotary wings have fatigue issues that are hard to prevent without extensive development and testing.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
It's relatively easy for small birds and insects to fly and climb almost vertical. Not for large stuff or humans. Powered human flight is difficult.
Humans can glide and have mastered hang gliding. Some think the pterodactyl was a hang glider for takeoff and could not launch from flat land.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49746642/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/pterodactyl-was-so-big-it-couldnt-fly-scientist-claims/#.Wy-u0etHarU

Burt didn't design an ultralight. Might have been too difficult? Burt apparently didn't finish his roadable airplane either (Bipod).
I failed to make one thing clear. I did not intend to imply human powered. Sorry for that error. Birdman's flight was, in theory, accomplished with the assistance of his cell phone batteries.

Lack of sufficient auxilary power power has prevented successful "birdman" flight for the last 10,000 years.

Can't use that excuse any more.
 

BBerson

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
12,994
Location
Port Townsend WA
I understand. I wasn't implying a human powered helicopter has any use either. But the human powered airplanes and helicopters could at least glide or autorotate at a low descent rate when power fails. With a high power system the size can be small with high disc loading. But it will drop like a brick if the power fails. It will also be noisy (prop noise)
So my approach was to start with large rotor area size and lower power input. To just putter around with powered lift, kind of like Santos Dumont did with his 2hp airships.
 

Dusan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
50
Location
Canada
A few years ago the website and associated video included below of a “Birdman” on hang glider like flapping wings went viral and made national and world news until (and also after) it was exposed as a hoax. The video was created by Dutchman Floris Kaayk AKA Jarno Smeets as a sort of fun project that apparently got out of hand.

WWW.humanbirdwings.net https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYW5G2kbrKk

Although the video was nicely done and at least semi-believable it obviously was quickly and relatively crudely made over a period of several months. The truth is that the technology to actually accomplish the birdman flight or “Personal Flight” as depicted is likely actually available or just around the corner just as the ability to go to the moon was available in the early 60’s. Can this video push a “Moon Shot for Personal Flight”? Having recently reviewed the Burt Rutan presentation as depicted in HBA Rutan Lecture thread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMSMnblzPAM). I am encouraged as this is an example of the “big leap” Burt thinks we should strive for.

This thread appears to be a logical medium to begin the process. Now is your chance to present pros and cons. Argue for or against winged flight versus rotor powered vertical lift or some other possibly hybrid system. Consider this the beginning of a winged personal flight research project. I encourage you to join in and express your views. Don’t be afraid to shoot holes in proposals. According to Burt, if at least half of the knowledgeable people involved don’t think it is crazy, the project is too easy and a waste of time.

A search of the internet will revile several sites where one can, according to the hype, “fly like a bird” or be “free as a bird”. None of the sites are actually able to deliver on the promise but I believe the capability is definitely within reach.

The desire to fly like a bird is bred within many of us as depicted by the ancient stories and myths of early manned flight. The ability to actually accomplish much more birdlike flight is within our grasp. Imagine the impact if the concept of the bird flight video was a reality. While the Apollo project put about a dozen men on the moon; this project would allow a majority of the world’s population to participate in flights that would radically change their ability to travel. Burt Rutan is amazed and dismayed that no one born after 1935 has ever walked on the moon. Isn’t it about time we did something for the younger generation to experience the thrill of flight?

I look in my back yard and see the rabbits and squirrels running about. I also see the blue jays and cardinals flying from their nest to feeding areas. What a difference flight makes. Flight is so vastly superior to ground transportation there is no denying the benefits. As I look about I see dozens more birds than I see small mammals. Yet the yard is not overpopulated with birds.

As the worlds human population grows, the ability for humans to fly becomes a necessity as opposed to a nice ability. The population of large mammals is on the decline. Elephants, tigers, rhinos and buffalo are all in danger of following the woolly mammoth into extinction. With the exception of domestic animals, large herds of mammals are on the decline. Yet large flocks of birds are so common as to be a problem in human populated areas. The pigeons of Paris and Rome are examples. In the mid western US many hundreds of starlings may roost in a single tree. Large flocks of seagulls, ducks and geese are considered a pest in several populated areas while in remote nesting areas dense colonies are common. Large bird colonies are much more common than comparable mammal communities such as prairie dog towns. It appears that high population densities tend to drive the species either underground or into the air.

What about the congested sky theory? While ATC (government run Air Traffic Control) is concerned with congestion when two planes are within 20 miles of each other large flocks of starlings and other species contain hundreds of birds within a few cubic meters of airspace and none fall from the sky after colliding.

What to do next and where can we go from here? Burt Rutan credits the great French writer Antoine de Saint-Exupery as having said:

“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”

The immensity of the sky is even greater than that of the sea. The ship of Saint-Exupery’s quote explores the surface of the sea and to a large degree the target of exploration is the line of the shore and a few miles either side of the narrow shoreline.

Saint-Exupery was an explorer of the sky. He was driven to explore the immensity of the sea and the air above it as well as the varied and remote land masses under it. He wrote about those experiences and is an inspiration to those of us who are chosen to follow in his footsteps. It is a great and wonderful journey and you are welcome to come along.

Your job, if you accept it, is to bask in the morning sunshine and admire the emerging day. Listen to the morning doves and meadow larks sing as they take wing to explore a new day. Imagine soaring among mid day thermals and searching the endless sky. Feel the cooling breeze. Rise and fly about. Keep an eye on building storm clouds so you may fly another day. Then imagine flight among green meadows as the day begins to fade. Enjoy the fading beauty as the sun begins to set. Dream of future flights as you plan to make them real.

If this journey is for you the time and place to join is here.
WOW! Nicely said! Bravo!
 
2
Top